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Old 11-08-2012, 05:19 PM   #166
cycleman2
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Yep the trick is to trick the computer. I can't see why a stock BMW running the factory 02 sensor wouldn't benefit from an XIED or something similar, you'd just have to change the connectors. It would be an interesting experiment as both bikes factory stock are set up to run the 14.7 to 1 ratio.

If any of you have airheads from the early 70's before the EPA got heavily involved the carbs on them where designed to deliver a 13.8 to 1 AFM. Also if you do any reading on performance that range of 13.8 to 1 gives you the best performance and gas mileage.

So its no wonder the modern bikes run better at 13.8 than 14.7.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:33 PM   #167
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In addition to running vastly better/smoother, it seems to run cooler too.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Roger,
Thanks for your response and the cool diagrams.

So if I get what you are saying the PCIII does in fact turn off all motronic adaptation, is that correct? ... It also has a resistor across the old O2 sensor plug acting as a cat eliminator forcing base un-adapted open loop operation of the motronic. ... Dynojet either did not know this five years ago or did not say it, even in the models they advised disconnecting the O2 sensor for. ... .

edit: my understanding is when no O2 senor is detected, the native OEM ECU (motronic in BMW case) defaults to an open loop map, but not THE base open loop map that the PCIII deltas assume is in place. It is a leaner one. So that the PCIII fuel tables + open loop will be off, as they assume true base map. This is for older non-wideband models.

The additional advantage to me of the PCIII + wideband on the GS is the programmable base map it has, which is a 18 x 9, 2d array of +/- tweaks to fueling (rpm vs tps). Unless I do not understand the diagrams, that cannot be done by just adding a wideband sensor. The other thing that can be done is dial the AFR you want closed loop mode to target, via the nice software interface. Comes set at 13.8 but that is easy to tweak.

... Anyway what counts is how it runs, and it has never run like this.

The other thing I kind of liked was running "stock" PCIII map on top of the Steptoe mod for catless. The catless map option in the PCIII assumed a bunch of other hi-po mods I do not have.

...
With the LC-1 installed I can data log and graph all the maps on my 1150. They are all designed for Closed Loop operation so are all about 14.7:1 in the cruising range but differ based on the coding plug which is supposed to let the Motronic know what intake tubes, heads and cams your engine has, as these differ among the various R1150 models. When the ma 2.4 Motronic doesn't get a valid O2 signal it makes the map leaner and richer with a less desirable fueling pattern (check the last few pages of my Wideband o2 thread for an exa,ple). This is the pattern the PC III has to work with. Maybe a bigger difference is the spark timing map which also changes with coding plug.

Once you reset the Motronic, without a valid O2 signal, it never adapts, that's right.

Without data logging the steptoe map mod I wouldn't make any assumptions about fueling.

If I owned a PC III, I would put the stock coding plug on my bike, reset the Motronic, set every cell in the map to plus 6-10% depending on whether I ran E10 (10% if E10) and program the O2 to Closed Loop 13.8. That would nicely rich open loop and closed loop. If you feel like experimenting give that a try. You could then reduce the percentage additions for large TPS and rpm values.

Fun stuff. And yes, it will run 25-50F cooler exhaust temps. But as you said the best part is the performance, its astounding.
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:22 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
Yep the trick is to trick the computer. I can't see why a stock BMW running the factory 02 sensor wouldn't benefit from an XIED or something similar, you'd just have to change the connectors. It would be an interesting experiment as both bikes factory stock are set up to run the 14.7 to 1 ratio.

If any of you have airheads from the early 70's before the EPA got heavily involved the carbs on them where designed to deliver a 13.8 to 1 AFM. Also if you do any reading on performance that range of 13.8 to 1 gives you the best performance and gas mileage.

So its no wonder the modern bikes run better at 13.8 than 14.7.
The xied works by varying the low side signal line on the Delphi (I believe) ECU used on Harleys. It's a simple plug n play for those bikes. As designed I don't believe it will work on the Motronic which has a very different O2 sensor input circuit, having discussed just that with the designer of the Xied. He might be able to design one that would work, but for about twice the money you can add a full Wideband O2 like the LC-1 and get an easy to program setting AND data logging capability, around $170 last time I looked on amazon.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:11 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Wanted to update the general Steptoe mod thread with something I just tried. To recap I have a 2002 R1150GS Adv, Y-pipe + stock canister, K&N. Did the jumper mod to catless map a while back with good results for thousands of miles. However this summer while on a long ride, got some pinging again. Conditions were very hot, slow, stuck behind a truck for miles coming into Lizard Head pass south of Telluride (maybe 10-11k ft elevation). Needed to get on it to pass and got the worst pinging ever, felt like it was going to stall. Thought maybe it was gas, later filled the tank and got some more under similar conditions a few days later.

We were riding with a Canadian fellow, and using hand signals and crude pantomime he was able to communicate that he used a Dynojet PCIII wideband to good results on his GSA back home (Hi Ian). So I kept that in mind and waited for one to show up on fBAy or Adv flea market. One did and I got it.
Hey Al;

I know I have a funny Canadian accent but "crude pantomime" ? ;)

I'm really glad to hear that it worked for you.

Ian



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Old 11-09-2012, 03:36 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canoehead View Post
Hey Al;

I know I have a funny Canadian accent but "crude pantomime" ? ;)

I'm really glad to hear that it worked for you.

Ian



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Hi Ian,
Good to hear from you. Yes this was a great mod, thanks for suggesting it. I had to puzzle out how I'd run it in conjunction with the jumper mod but it seems to have worked out quite well so far.

We are in the middle of the first major winter storm of the season, all those high altitude areas we went riding are getting hit with several feet of snow next few days. Looks like the GS will be hibernating soon. But not until after I install the new HID kit later today! Ha ha! Then it will be time to switch over to the snowboards for 5-6 months.

Wolf Creek Pass forecast

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick...2=-106.611&e=0

Stay warm.

Al
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:41 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
With the LC-1 installed I can data log and graph all the maps on my 1150. They are all designed for Closed Loop operation so are all about 14.7:1 in the cruising range but differ based on the coding plug which is supposed to let the Motronic know what intake tubes, heads and cams your engine has, as these differ among the various R1150 models. When the ma 2.4 Motronic doesn't get a valid O2 signal it makes the map leaner and richer with a less desirable fueling pattern (check the last few pages of my Wideband o2 thread for an exa,ple). This is the pattern the PC III has to work with. Maybe a bigger difference is the spark timing map which also changes with coding plug.

Once you reset the Motronic, without a valid O2 signal, it never adapts, that's right.

Without data logging the steptoe map mod I wouldn't make any assumptions about fueling.

If I owned a PC III, I would put the stock coding plug on my bike, reset the Motronic, set every cell in the map to plus 6-10% depending on whether I ran E10 (10% if E10) and program the O2 to Closed Loop 13.8. That would nicely rich open loop and closed loop. If you feel like experimenting give that a try. You could then reduce the percentage additions for large TPS and rpm values.

Fun stuff. And yes, it will run 25-50F cooler exhaust temps. But as you said the best part is the performance, its astounding.
OK this is good info. The reason I want to stick with the Steptoe catless map (as opposed to upping all the cells 6-10%) is the flow pattern and likely VE vs RPM has changed a lot removing the cat, so the jumper map for that (I hope) takes some of it into account. At least on other motors that I saw the maps for, removing cats was not always just lean everywhere by the same amount.

I did NOT reset the motronic yet so that is the first thing I'll try. BTW the closed loop area and the area to the right of that where the cells have changed most from zero is exactly where I had the most problems with pinging.

Anyway it is trivial to change settings and I still have the older CCP so one day I will try your suggestion and see. Right now it is snowing and it looks like riding season may be over until April.
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:05 AM   #173
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I use Bosch 4417 plugs, with 4 electrodes, I always had pinging at high RPM, especially when I did not run hard due to commuting duty for a few weeks. Besides better running, these plugs totally eliminated the pinging.I can even run 89 in the winter, summer still need 91 though. Try them
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:43 AM   #174
cycleman2
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The xied works by varying the low side signal line on the Delphi (I believe) ECU used on Harleys. It's a simple plug n play for those bikes. As designed I don't believe it will work on the Motronic which has a very different O2 sensor input circuit, having discussed just that with the designer of the Xied. He might be able to design one that would work, but for about twice the money you can add a full Wideband O2 like the LC-1 and get an easy to program setting AND data logging capability, around $170 last time I looked on amazon.
Yes it would be interesting to see if it would work. Both systems are running closed loop in the off idle to 3/4 throttle range, and both are using 02 Sensors that send an electronic voltage signal to the ECM. With the plug & play of the XIED's it makes it a very simple cost effective system.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:03 AM   #175
fred flintstone
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Roger,
Just read your Wideband thread, wow. Great work and very educational.
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:55 AM   #176
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Yes it would be interesting to see if it would work. Both systems are running closed loop in the off idle to 3/4 throttle range, and both are using 02 Sensors that send an electronic voltage signal to the ECM. With the plug & play of the XIED's it makes it a very simple cost effective system.
Here is an interesting comparison chart showing the benefits of various richer mixtures. Xied Vied LC-1 Comparisons. The roll on acceleration in 4th gear from 35 - 65 is interesting. Steven Mullen, founder of Nightrider and patent-holder, has run a lot of different mixture comparisons, as I've done on my R1150. My results with the LC-1 tracked his pretty closely except the Boxer engine doesn't see much of a fuel consumption increase, only about 3% for a 6% richer mixture. That's due to some of the extra fuel actually producing extra power.

I'm now of the opinion that most of the benefit for the PC III on Boxers is due to the 13.8:1 Closed Loop function.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:59 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Here is an interesting comparison chart showing the benefits of various richer mixtures. Xied Vied LC-1 Comparisons. The roll on acceleration in 4th gear from 35 - 65 is interesting. Steven Mullen, founder of Nightrider and patent-holder, has run a lot of different mixture comparisons, as I've done on my R1150. My results with the LC-1 tracked his pretty closely except the Boxer engine doesn't see much of a fuel consumption increase, only about 3% for a 6% richer mixture. That's due to some of the extra fuel actually producing extra power.

I'm now of the opinion that most of the benefit for the PC III on Boxers is due to the 13.8:1 Closed Loop function.
In my case I can't really detect any increase in fuel consumption with the XIED's installed. I concur the 13.8.1 is a very good all around AFR for any gas combustion engine.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:14 PM   #178
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Warning: Long engineer post attached

When I bought my PCIII from another inmate, he said that he had had his bike dyno tuned and I found that the map he supplied was different from the stock PCIII map. I didn't know what his mods were (or how competent his shop was), so I went with the standard Dynojet map but I did save that custom map. What is interesting is that they defuelled at 10% throttle (maybe looking for fuel economy?) and added more fuel at 80%. THE WFO map is pretty similar to the stock map. They also tweaked within Closed Loop but I assume that the PCIII will ignore that. Anyway, here it is....



Dynojet offers a AFR display that plugs into the PCIII. I thought about buying it but then my short attention span got diverted to other farkles since I was pretty happy with the standard PCIII map.

My bike will happily pull from under 3000 rpm in 6th - there's not a lot of thrust but it is smooth. I am always amazed when inmates say that they can't get smooth running on an 1150 below 70mph in 6th - I am in 6th at 50mph regularly (caveat: I do have the enduro transmission).

I believe that the PCIII does send O2 info to the ECU, it doesn't block the signal entirely, so I don't think that the ECU goes to always open mode. The PCIII doesn't just modify the signal from the O2 sensor to the ECU, it also modifies the output that goes to the injectors, which is actually how it richens up the mixture. I wondered if the Motronic would learn and try to adapt around the PCIII but it doesn't seem to have done so.

I tried the Steptoe mod on my bike before installing the PCIII and it didn't seem to do anything at all. The Motronic version is different on the single and twinspark engines, and the map on Canadian and US bikes is reported to be different, so YMMV.

Looks like I have some reading of Roger 04 RT's thread to do.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:10 PM   #179
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After reading the PC III installation for the R1150GS, it is more clear than the instructions for the R1150RT which I had read previously. Something does plug into the Motronic's O2 connector from the PC III. I don't know if it's merely a bypass or if it is sending an active signal to the Motronic. There is very little documentation, think I'll give them a call next week to discuss.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:04 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
After reading the PC III installation for the R1150GS, it is more clear than the instructions for the R1150RT which I had read previously. Something does plug into the Motronic's O2 connector from the PC III. I don't know if it's merely a bypass or if it is sending an active signal to the Motronic. There is very little documentation, think I'll give them a call next week to discuss.
Here is the guy I was emailing with in case you need a contact


Dustin Schaller
Senior Product Manager
Dynojet Research
800-992-4993
dusty@dynojet.com
www.dynojet.com
www.powercommander.com

Also here are the O2 simluators ("Oxygen Optimizer Kit") for other apps, which I supect is what the GS wideband does with the empty OEM sensor plug, or something similar

http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...ent_parts.aspx

I ordered 2 of these for couple of other bikes I have with older non wideband PCIII's running O2 sensor disconnected. Will report back on how they run after I install and test.

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