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Old 11-15-2012, 07:27 AM   #211
cycleman2
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With the jumpers on the relays. I've been watching this topic for several years and having owned a R1100R am familiar with the surge issues, but I've always had a bit of difficulty accepting that a relay is smart. There are different voltage levels at the relay and playing with them can be dangerous for the other components in the system.

If all things are equal if you jumper a pair of pins on any bike of the same model the results should be the same. I'm not talking about an EPA map for Europe or other countries, just one built for the market in the US. Something doesn't add up. Because of the way relays work in most applications that I'm aware of, they are there to protect a more sensitive part that can't handle a higher voltage ie: sensor thermostat for a fan motor etc. So logically the way it works in the topic at hand is if the relay is plugged in and it receives a voltage signal to activate, it sends a low voltage signal to what it controls and if it is unplugged no signal is transmitted. So the piece of equipment that is expecting the signal has only two choices. With the computer not receiving a signal then there no doubt a limp mode built into the system, or it defaults to another sensor. If it receives the signal then it acts on what is programed into the system. In bikes equipped with 02 sensors I'd leave the relay alone, just keep it plugged in. The 02 Sensor is the key.

Also dual plug verses single plug. To my knowledge you still only have one ignition that is sending the spark via the coils to the plugs. I haven't seen the heads off of a dual spark/single spark so I can't comment on the combustion chamber/piston shape. In other applications employing dual sparks results in a larger/hotter spark for more complete combustion. In the case of BMWs it was used in the 1150's and it was also fairly popular in some Airhead mods. But the end result if you change the timing it affects both plugs firing/advance. Yes there very well could be a slightly richer map in the computer with a dual plug 1150 that would give you slightly more power and because of the better combustion still meet EPA standards.

Things really haven't changed that much. With all modern EFI, computer controlled engines be they in a motorcycle or auto there are still only 2 variables that can be changed based on a given amount of air entering the combustion chamber. That is add/subtract fuel or add/subtract timing. All engines have sensors ( some more complicated than others and some have slightly different ways of getting the data ) but they feed that electrical data to the computer and the computer based on its data tables either changes fuel or timing. That's all that it can do. The more complicated aftermarket setups, apparently allow you to change all these variables throughout the bikes RPM range.

This is an interesting topic and I think there must be lots of parallels in other parts of the motorcycle/auto world as they are all basically still doing the same thing, controlling ignition & fuel. With the advent of 02 sensors that has changed everything on how an engines fuel/timing are adjusted.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:07 AM   #212
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Roger, you have made me very interested in the LC-1 device.

I will do a bit more research, and searching ( fo ryour posts and photos) but I do think I will order one of these gizmos.

also, on my own r1100gs, the 30-87a ( steptoe mod) removes 99% of the surging the bike has.

I would like to track the AFR on my own bike to see whats happening there.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:23 AM   #213
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My take on the Coding Plug issue is that the BMW engineers did good job of measuring all the air data to build good fuel and spark tables for the various R1150 models. My advice would be to use the stock plug. That said if you try another plug and like it, not a problem.

My reason for measuring the plugs is mere curiosity to know what they do.

In a Closed Loop motorcycle, if you want to add fuel, you have to shift Lambda of the O2 sensor. That's really important because the Oilheads all have a large Closed Loop area--I've detected closed loop above 60% throttle and above 6000 rpm.

Although I've used an LC-1 to shift lambda, a PC III USB with Wideband seems like a great tool. I've had a response from dynojet but am waiting for an important clarification.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-15-2012 at 09:38 AM
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:44 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by mouthfulloflake View Post
Roger, you have made me very interested in the LC-1 device.

I will do a bit more research, and searching ( fo ryour posts and photos) but I do think I will order one of these gizmos.

also, on my own r1100gs, the 30-87a ( steptoe mod) removes 99% of the surging the bike has.

I would like to track the AFR on my own bike to see whats happening there.
The only real challenge with the LC-1 is getting a small box and connecting some wires. Not hard but it helps to have some experience.

The programming is easy and I've worked out the best settings for the Motronic. You really should go back to the stock plug on the 1100 because your plug has disabled closed loop. You need it back on.

In a few days I'm going to post a no-dynojet equivalent to the LC-1 using the PC III. The big advantage to LC-1 is the afr logger. The advantage to PC III is ease of install and programmable fuel table--if you feel you need that.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:24 PM   #215
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I have noticed my fuel economy is not very good, but the surging is so bad, its miserable to ride!
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:16 AM   #216
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I've heard from Dynoject and although I'd like some further clarifications, I don't think I'll hear more. The product was designed nearly 10 years ago and as you would expect the designers have moved on.
" the testing was done so long ago I may not be able to answer your question thoroughly."
The BMW Powercommander III USB Wideband is essentially a Wideband Commander coupled to a Powercommander III USB.

The essence of what I've heard fro Dynojet is:
"The connection to the stock ECU narrow band input is tied to our Wideband sensor. We are able to offset the narrowband signal based on our wideband input."
This is how the Innovate LC-1 works, although the LC-1 is a later, better performing design with data logging capability.

The BMW Powercommander and Motronic runs closed loop and develops Adaptation values everywhere the Motronic would on its own. That's because the Wideband signal, converted to narrowband format, is "Always connected". The shaded area on the PC fuel map (see photos several posts back) is just a guess on PC's part about where the Motronic is in closed loop.
"The highlighted area is what we have interpreted as the closed loop area of the stock ECU."
I have many measurements that show the closed loop area of the Motronic is up to 62.5% throttle and up to 6250 RPM. I think we should expect that it is closed loop everywhere below those numbers.

I did some digging and found letters from Dynoject to Harley forums where there was a clamor for this capability. Here is part of what the design manager wrote:
"Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.

We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications."
This all means that the PC III for USB works very differently on an Oilhead than on any other motorcycle most Dyno tuners work on. It also means that the WOT "pulls" aren't likely to provide an optimal tuning since most dyno tuners don't seem to understand the interaction with Closed Loop Adaptation Values. There's no reason that they should be familiar since this product works differently than most every other PC they would work with.

With this information, it is now pretty clear to me how the Powercommander and Motronic work together. My plan is to update the block and show a recommended fuel map for implementation. I am a lot more positive on the Powercommander as a tool now than before. It can be implemented on the majority of BMW Oilheads with NO Dyno tuning.

If anyone reading this would like to loan me a PC for a couple weeks I'd like to run some tests. In the meantime I'm going to try and buy one used. Then later I'll resell it, all set up for installation.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-16-2012 at 05:23 AM
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:18 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
I've heard from Dynoject and although I'd like some further clarifications, I don't think I'll hear more. The product was designed nearly 10 years ago and as you would expect the designers have moved on.
" the testing was done so long ago I may not be able to answer your question thoroughly."
The BMW Powercommander III USB Wideband is essentially a Wideband Commander coupled to a Powercommander III USB.

The essence of what I've heard fro Dynojet is:
"The connection to the stock ECU narrow band input is tied to our Wideband sensor. We are able to offset the narrowband signal based on our wideband input."
This is how the Innovate LC-1 works, although the LC-1 is a later, better performing design with data logging capability.

The BMW Powercommander and Motronic runs closed loop and develops Adaptation values everywhere the Motronic would on its own. That's because the Wideband signal, converted to narrowband format, is "Always connected". The shaded area on the PC fuel map (see photos several posts back) is just a guess on PC's part about where the Motronic is in closed loop.
"The highlighted area is what we have interpreted as the closed loop area of the stock ECU."
I have many measurements that show the closed loop area of the Motronic is up to 62.5% throttle and up to 6250 RPM. I think we should expect that it is closed loop everywhere below those numbers.

I did some digging and found letters from Dynoject to Harley forums where there was a clamor for this capability. Here is part of what the design manager wrote:
"Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.

We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications."
This all means that the PC III for USB works very differently on an Oilhead than on any other motorcycle most Dyno tuners work on. It also means that the WOT "pulls" aren't likely to provide an optimal tuning since most dyno tuners don't seem to understand the interaction with Closed Loop Adaptation Values. There's no reason that they should be familiar since this product works differently than most every other PC they would work with.

With this information, it is now pretty clear to me how the Powercommander and Motronic work together. My plan is to update the block and show a recommended fuel map for implementation. I am a lot more positive on the Powercommander as a tool now than before. It can be implemented on the majority of BMW Oilheads with NO Dyno tuning.

If anyone reading this would like to loan me a PC for a couple weeks I'd like to run some tests. In the meantime I'm going to try and buy one used. Then later I'll resell it, all set up for installation.
Wow, very interesting. Some of this I suspected but a lot is a complete surprise. For example I thought for sure they disabled OEM closed loop and ran their own closed loop on top of their fuel tables. But I suspected there had to be a O2 sensor in place of some kind as there never was a PCIII option for oilheads to run without one.

Seems like your earlier suggestion to bump up fuel tables at least 6% was a good one, since we don't know exactly where the closed loop is functioning (amazing! BTW).

So it looks like they (dynojet) realized they could not run open loop with modified fuel trim tables as most early PCIII's do, and they could nor reliably richen up the mandatory closed loop area with motronic forcing it using the narrowband O2 sensor, so they added the wideband plus a capability to target AFR in the closed loop portion. Leaving all OEM adaptation in place. Not a bad solution given the constraints IMHO.

That begs the question what AFR is used by the motronic for adaptation purposes? And somewhat unrelated, WTF is the 30-87a map doing on a 1150 single spark with the PCIII on top?

Anyway great stuff, thanks for digging this up, more later as I think about it.

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:51 AM   #218
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Wow, very interesting. Some of this I suspected but a lot is a complete surprise. For example I thought for sure they disabled OEM closed loop and ran their own closed loop on top of their fuel tables. But I suspected there had to be a O2 sensor in place of some kind as there never was a PCIII option for oilheads to run without one.

Seems like your earlier suggestion to bump up fuel tables at least 6% was a good one, since we don't know exactly where the closed loop is functioning (amazing! BTW).

So it looks like they (dynojet) realized they could not run open loop with modified fuel trim tables as most early PCIII's do, and they could nor reliably richen up the mandatory closed loop area with motronic forcing it using the narrowband O2 sensor, so they added the wideband plus a capability to target AFR in the closed loop portion. Leaving all OEM adaptation in place. Not a bad solution given the constraints IMHO.

That begs the question what AFR is used by the motronic for adaptation purposes? And somewhat unrelated, WTF is the 30-87a map doing on a 1150 single spark with the PCIII on top?

Anyway great stuff, thanks for digging this up, more later as I think about it.
Very interesting indeed. To your questions:

It is clear to me, since the stock narrowband O2 sensor transitions at 14.7:1, that is what the Motronic adapts to. And the Motronic tables are figured with: the stock plug; and gasoline without ethanol (stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1). However what the Motronic is really doing is adapting to the Lambda as set by the O2 sensor. This is why if you put in a sensor that transitions at, say, 13.8:1, the Motronic Adapts to that. If it figures a correction of say 5% (and there are many Adaptation Value, I don't know how many and for our purposes it doesn't matter) it applies that to the approriate part of the fuel table, right up to WOT.

I think you'll find that 30-87a is the same on single and twin but I don't KNOW that so someone needs to measure it.

An interesting possibility is that the pinging is caused by a too RICH mixture. The explanation is that a rich mixture has a faster flame front (fact, which is why the WOT timing on these bikes is less spark advance than at cruise). That richer AFR is caused by the add-on exhaust not being as well tuned and reducing the VE in some parts of the table. Everyone says free flowing exhausts lean things out, but it is equally possible that they're not as good as the factory. Okay, I know that's a heretical view but I've said it. Not sure that's what's happening, but a possibility.

BTW, I plan to test 30-87 (stock for the 1150GS) on my RT today or tomorrow.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-16-2012 at 07:56 AM
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:01 AM   #219
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Very interesting indeed. To your questions:

It is clear to me, since the stock narrowband O2 sensor transitions at 14.7:1, that is what the Motronic adapts to. And the Motronic tables are figured with: the stock plug; and gasoline without ethanol (stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1). However what the Motronic is really doing is adapting to the Lambda as set by the O2 sensor. This is why if you put in a sensor that transitions at, say, 13.8:1, the Motronic Adapts to that. If it figures a correction of say 5% (and there are many Adaptation Value, I don't know how many and for our purposes it doesn't matter) it applies that to the approriate part of the fuel table, right up to WOT.

I think you'll find that 30-87a is the same on single and twin but I don't KNOW that so someone needs to measure it.

An interesting possibility is that the pinging is caused by a too RICH mixture. The explanation is that a rich mixture has a faster flame front (fact, which is why the WOT timing on these bikes is less spark advance than at cruise). That richer AFR is caused by the add-on exhaust not being as well tuned and reducing the VE in some parts of the table. Everyone says free flowing exhausts lean things out, but it is equally possible that they're not as good as the factory. Okay, I know that's heretical view but I've said it. Not sure that's what's happening, but a possibility.
That is what I was thinking as far as the AFR to which non-closed loop was adapting. So that ALL the adaptation will target whatever you set the PCIII AFR to, not just the closed loop section, since they are spoofing the OEM signal.

I think I will take your suggestion to restore the 30-87-87a and see how that goes, since it is clear now that a globally richer AFR is being used. I guess we'll never know what exactly the 30-87a did. I will add that my bike clearly ran not only without pinging but much stronger than it did (even when not pinging). Until the one episode riding with Ian that led to the PCIII.

I do have the AFR gauge on order so if we get any riding weather here I will try to pay attention to what it is saying and see what can be learned.

Interested to see what you come up with if you happen to find a used PCIII. They show up from time to time on eBay.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:10 AM   #220
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That is what I was thinking as far as the AFR to which non-closed loop was adapting. So that ALL the adaptation will target whatever you set the PCIII AFR to, not just the closed loop section, since they are spoofing the OEM signal.

I think I will take your suggestion to restore the 30-87-87a and see how that goes, since it is clear now that a globally richer AFR is being used. I guess we'll never know what exactly the 30-87a did. I will add that my bike clearly ran not only without pinging but much stronger than it did (even when not pinging). Until the one episode riding with Ian that led to the PCIII.

I do have the AFR gauge on order so if we get any riding weather here I will try to pay attention to what it is saying and see what can be learned.

Interested to see what you come up with if you happen to find a used PCIII. They show up from time to time on eBay.
Isn't the stock plug for the 1150GS a 30-87 (the 1150RT is 30-87-87a)?
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:12 AM   #221
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Isn't the stock plug for the 1150GS a 30-87 (the 1150RT is 30-87-87a)?
Sorry, you are right. It is the yellow plug with only 2 prongs.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:33 AM   #222
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Sorry, you are right. It is the yellow plug with only 2 prongs.
So assuming you run non-ethanol, I would recommend 6% everywhere in the fuel table except at 100% throttle I would use 4%. This means open loop would start out at 14.7 from the motronic plus 6% more from the PC getting you to 13.8. This means the motronic wouldn't have a lot of adapting to do.

If you run fuel with ethanol, 10% everywhere and 7% at 100% throttle.

Obviously though it's your bike and you need to make the choice.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:45 AM   #223
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So assuming you run non-ethanol, I would recommend 6% everywhere in the fuel table except at 100% throttle I would use 4%. This means open loop would start out at 14.7 from the motronic plus 6% more from the PC getting you to 13.8. This means the motronic wouldn't have a lot of adapting to do.

If you run fuel with ethanol, 10% everywhere and 7% at 100% throttle.

Obviously though it's your bike and you need to make the choice.
OK thanks. What I think I will do is install the AFR gauge and get some base readings on the present set up, which runs very well (30-87a, "stock" dynojet map set to 13.8). Then reinstall CCP, stock dynojet map. Then try your settings on the dynojet. Resetting motronic in between each. Assuming weather permits etc.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:13 AM   #224
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That sounds like a very good plan.

I would also encourage you to try 13.5:1 with 8% in the cells and then at the other "extreme" at 14.1:1 with 4%. If you get really into an experimental mode try 15.4:1 and -4%, but ride easy.

I think I'm going to buy one of these and attach it to my existing wideband sensor. When it's all setup and I'm done with trials, I'll put it into the classifieds with a new Bosch LSU Wideband sensor for anyone who's interested.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:35 PM   #225
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I'm going to add a detailed write up for my Wideband O2 Project thread but I will add a couple diagrams here since Fred F, and Mr. Canoehead, and others have been so helpful to my understanding and getting me vectored on the right path with the PC III Wideband. The product manager at Dynojet came through too.

I had it confirmed today by Dynoject that once the O2 sensor is warmed, the Wideband signal is always sent to the Motronic. Further, the PC III has no Closed Loop software routines of its own. This means the Motronic performs Closed Loop and has its full Adaptation Values capability.

Here is the new block diagram of PC III integrated to the Motronic. The PC III is actually a Wideband O2 added to a PC III USB. The Wideband O2 richenes Closed Loop and the Fuel Maps richen the Motronic tables to match the new Closed Loop target.

The PC III part can be used to add 6% richness to the stock table except at 80% and 100% throttle where the Motronic mixtures are already pretty near Best Power mixtures.

So as an example, if you want to richen the mixture by 6% and you're running gasoline and an unmodified bike, I recommend, as a starting point, 6% richer through 60% throttle (Closed Loop areas), 4% richer at 80% and 2% richer at 100% throttle. I'm sure this seems simplistic but the approach here is designed to work well with the conflicting needs of the PC III and the Motronic. You would use a different table for fuel with Ethanol to add 4% for Ethanol's leanness--not mandatory but helpful.

Here are the diagrams, more later:



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