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Old 11-20-2012, 05:40 AM   #256
fred flintstone
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dyno charts

Ran across a small database of r1150 dyno charts, take a look at this one and esp the AFR about 4k rpms:

http://www.sjbmw.com/service.asp?s=charts&did=43

Amazing flat TQ curve on this motor, as born out by this chart and others on the website

Anyway (Roger) I was wondering if the LC1 has the capability to program AFR as a function of RPM or other parameters? This is where we get into the 1 degree of freedom thing, one AFR is never going to be the best for all conditions/loads. Because of the N-alpha reliance on an O2 sensor in closed loop to make up for the system's inability to measure air mass directly, this is what you get. It isn't bad it just highlight the restrictions we are working under.

Of course the charts are WOT and (I presume) outside of closed loop area but curious nonetheless. Clearly the thing to do is find an open stretch of road and fixedly stare at the AFR gauge whilst applying WOT to redline in order to ascertain WTF is going on with my bike.

edit: note the PCIII is also hamstrung by this, as no matter what fuel tables you put in the fast closed loop section will try to undo that to get you to whatever the AFR is set to. Even the open loop area will be affected as the slow onboard motronic trim tables will undo PCII open loop trim to some extent (I think).

edit 2: What the PCIII will do is perhaps provide a different starting point from the OEM tables so that the fast and slow loops can hit their commanded AFR target. For example 12.5 AFR (or whatever) may be outside the OEM ability to hit under some circumstances, but if the PCIII is adding fuel at that point then perhaps it could be hit as the internal closed loop would not have so far to go.

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Old 11-20-2012, 07:09 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Because the O2 sensor gets two votes: 1) It sets Closed Loop fueling and 2) it creates adaptations for Open Loop, it is nearly impossible to get a consistent amount of added fuel without an O2 shift--unless you permanently disable Closed Loop.

I have found my BoosterPlug to be useful in connection with a lambda shift. The BoosterPlug can reduce the amount of adaptation work that the Wodeband O2 and Motronic have to do. An example of that say at a certain rpm and TPS the Motronic outputs a 3 mS pulse and expects that pulse will yield an afr of 14.7. In a lambda shift system to 13.8 it would take a 6% longer pulse to hit 13.8 (6% times the 3 mS pulse minus its 1mS dead time means add 0.12 mS), a pulse of 3.12 mS.

You can either get to 3.12 mS by letting the Motronic figure it out in closed loop, or shift the air temp so that instead of start at 3mS and adjusting, it started at 3.12 mS. Apologies if this sounds like double talk.

The other thing you can do to shift the fuel tables is increase fuel pressure so that a 3 mS pulse at the higher pressure produces the same amount of fuel as a 3.12 mS pulse at standard pressure. Is your head spinning?
I think my comments on shifting the map and for some people it works apply. The majority of folks that I know and trust that had success with IAT devices were concerned with throttle transitions from a low to higher RPM's like starting out and in turns. That shift would richen things up enough to overcome an inherent EPA induced lean condition.
It's hard enough to get a good handle on what the computer is doing between closed and open loop with one sensor let alone two. From past comments, I know you get into this way more than I. I once had a discussion with DynoJet about the ins and outs of a PCIII on an FJR in regards to both the O2 sensor and closed loop. They recommended at the time to remove the O2 sensor and they would not run in the closed loop at all. IMO, they were half right. Use the O2 sensor(s) but map the computer without any compensation/use for/of closed loop. They said that when they used the O2 sensor on that bike the PCIII and the computer would fight each other in a compensation see saw. My current position on this subject is just go ride and use a very cheap wrist compensator It is a very good topic for discussion though.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:25 AM   #258
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Ran across a small database of r1150 dyno charts, take a look at this one and esp the AFR about 4k rpms:

http://www.sjbmw.com/service.asp?s=charts&did=43

Amazing flat TQ curve on this motor, as born out by this chart and others on the website

Anyway (Roger) I was wondering if the LC1 has the capability to program AFR as a function of RPM or other parameters? This is where we get into the 1 degree of freedom thing, one AFR is never going to be the best for all conditions/loads. Because of the N-alpha reliance on an O2 sensor in closed loop to make up for the system's inability to measure air mass directly, this is what you get. It isn't bad it just highlight the restrictions we are working under.

Of course the charts are WOT and (I presume) outside of closed loop area but curious nonetheless. Clearly the thing to do is find an open stretch of road and fixedly stare at the AFR gauge whilst applying WOT to redline in order to ascertain WTF is going on with my bike.

edit: note the PCIII is also hamstrung by this, as no matter what fuel tables you put in the fast closed loop section will try to undo that to get you to whatever the AFR is set to. Even the open loop area will be affected as the slow onboard motronic trim tables will undo PCII open loop trim to some extent (I think).

edit 2: What the PCIII will do is perhaps provide a different starting point from the OEM tables so that the fast and slow loops can hit their commanded AFR target. For example 12.5 AFR (or whatever) may be outside the OEM ability to hit under some circumstances, but if the PCIII is adding fuel at that point then perhaps it could be hit as the internal closed loop would not have so far to go.
The dyno charts are interesting. I'd like to see the Torque reliably measured at 1500 RPM and up but they never seem to get rolling until 2500+ RPM. Thanks for adding them.

In the Closed Loop area (which is broad for the Oilheads up to 62% throttle and up to 6500 RPM) any system will converge on whatever the Lambda is set to (Lambda =1 for stock bikes, Lambda = programmable and currently at 0.94 for us). This is counting on the BMW VE tables built in to the Motronic being right. Outside the Closed Loop area, you will can also get a fuel increase. If you use fuel pressure or IAT sensor to introduce a shift, Open Loop areas will be shifted by the amount of the Lambda shift. So in my case, using fuel pressure, my warm-up and WOT are also 6% richer. In your case, since you haven't added fuel in the Closed Loop area, your Motronic is adapting and fuel is being added at WOT. However if you were to use a table like I suggested, you could add fuel in the closed loop area (so little adaptation) and then as I did select only 3% more at WOT. Your warm-up, will add the usual amounts but to the target Lambda value--meaning warmup will be richer than stock. I see no way to avoid that and I haven't yet felt the need to. Actally if you capacitively coupled a second IAT sensor in parallel with the existing sensor, and made the time constant 10 seconds, then you could make the Motronic see a warmer temperature for 10 or 20 seconds--pretty sexy, eh?

Regarding WOT AFR, I've made several WOT runs to 100+ MPH and found that I'm at about 12.0:1 at the richest. and high 12s much of the WOT time. A pretty good place to be for Best Power Mixture.

From my measurements, I have seen stock WOT AFRs in the high 12s and low 13s, fine. The interaction between the Motronic's Adaptation and the PC III USB's fuel tables has to be thought through. If you cover the 60% and below column with 6s, assuming non-ethanol gasoline then there will be little adaptation because you've added the same amount to the stock table that you're looking for with the wideband. Therefore, any fuel you add in the 80 and 100% throttle column will be additive to the stock fueling.

On the other hand if you left 0s everywhere, set lambda to 0.94 (13.8) and let the Motronic adapt for a while, roughly 6% would be added everywhere relative to the Motronic stock map. Am I being clear enough that you can follow? It is a little convoluted to see how stock tables, lambda, adaptation and the PC III add on fuel interact.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:37 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The interaction between the Motronic's Adaptation and the PC III USB's fuel tables has to be thought through. If you cover the 60% and below column with 6s, assuming non-ethanol gasoline then there will be little adaptation because you've added the same amount to the stock table that you're looking for with the wideband. Therefore, any fuel you add in the 80 and 100% throttle column will be additive to the stock fueling.

On the other hand if you left 0s everywhere, set lambda to 0.94 (13.8) and let the Motronic adapt for a while, roughly 6% would be added everywhere relative to the Motronic stock map. Am I being clear enough that you can follow? It is a little convoluted to see how stock tables, lambda, adaptation and the PC III add on fuel interact.
I think that what you are saying is correct, based on my experience. I have noticed that after resetting the Motronic because the battery was out, the bike runs noticeably lean for a while before settling back to normal PCIII enhanced running. I'll try the 6% setting.

Those dyno charts are all over the map. There is one that shows a stock R1150 GS at 100 rwhp (110 with K&N and Remus) which seems too high. I wonder if they mislabeled a K1200 graph? http://www.sjbmw.com/service.asp?s=charts&did=34
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:41 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
I think my comments on shifting the map and for some people it works apply. The majority of folks that I know and trust that had success with IAT devices were concerned with throttle transitions from a low to higher RPM's like starting out and in turns. That shift would richen things up enough to overcome an inherent EPA induced lean condition.
The effect of IATs has not been well examined by datalog results. Most of the evidence of their benefits is anecdotal. I keep in close contact with Jens at BoosterPlug and have used his products for shifting the Motronic base map on Lambda shifted motorcycles. For that application I know it works. Others I have (yet) seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TuefelHunden View Post
It's hard enough to get a good handle on what the computer is doing between closed and open loop with one sensor let alone two. From past comments, I know you get into this way more than I. I once had a discussion with DynoJet about the ins and outs of a PCIII on an FJR in regards to both the O2 sensor and closed loop. They recommended at the time to remove the O2 sensor and they would not run in the closed loop at all. IMO, they were half right. Use the O2 sensor(s) but map the computer without any compensation/use for/of closed loop. They said that when they used the O2 sensor on that bike the PCIII and the computer would fight each other in a compensation see saw. My current position on this subject is just go ride and use a very cheap wrist compensator It is a very good topic for discussion though.
I'm not surprised that Dynojet suggested just disconnecting the O2 sensor. That is the only way the PC is mostly in control.

I've had a series of detailed changes with Dynojet which were helpful. Since they don't usually use their product coupled to Closed Loop applications (and don't on the PC V), they're not clear on the interaction. However, following my conversations and testing, I think I understand the interaction between Motronic, Wideband O2, Adaptation, PC add-on fuel, fuel pressure and IAT reading. It actually boils down to a simple process that I've tried to show on the PC/Motronic Block Diagram I posted.

But it is still tedious if you want a detailed understanding. I added the suggested fuel tables to make it easy.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
The effect of IATs has not been well examined by datalog results. Most of the evidence of their benefits is anecdotal. I keep in close contact with Jens at BoosterPlug and have used his products for shifting the Motronic base map on Lambda shifted motorcycles. For that application I know it works. Others I have (yet) seen.
.
Jens is a great guy. I was one of the beta testers on Booster Plug for Triumph Tigers. He has dyno results and one of the first guys to tell you straight up, don't look for any significant power changes.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:57 AM   #262
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Jens is a great guy. I was one of the beta testers on Booster Plug for Triumph Tigers. He has dyno results and one of the first guys to tell you straight up, don't look for any significant power changes.
Jens is a great guy and a gentlemen. I've got two of his BoosterPlugs. One that I bought (and aren't using at the moment) and a loaner for others who wanted to trying using the BP along with other Open Loop measures to see if a richer running environment would provide benefits before investing in an LC-1 or PC III USB.

The approach for 1150s is: disconnect the O2, reset the Motronic, and if running non-ethanol gasoline, add a BoosterPlug. If running E10 do the same but add the BP in series with the existing IAT sensor (I've got some adapters to do this). Lastly pay attention to how the bike runs with and without the BP just as the first bar comes on in the temp display. At that time the engine is relatively warm but the Motronic is still Open Loop and is still adding a few percent warm-up enrichment. Then if you see a difference (and I believe many will), go for an LC-1 or PC III with Wideband.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:49 PM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
...

Anyway (Roger) I was wondering if the LC1 has the capability to program AFR as a function of RPM or other parameters? This is where we get into the 1 degree of freedom thing, one AFR is never going to be the best for all conditions/loads. Because of the N-alpha reliance on an O2 sensor in closed loop to make up for the system's inability to measure air mass directly, this is what you get. It isn't bad it just highlight the restrictions we are working under.

...
When attached to the Motronic it just shifts everything all at once but there is another option if you feel very ambitious: the Megasquirt ECU which can make use of a Wideband O2 in its native mode (meaning not as simulated Narrowband). Then you can program multiple afr targets. Even if you don't want to build your own ECU, the Megamanual is chock full of good stuff.

RB
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:35 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
When attached to the Motronic it just shifts everything all at once but there is another option if you feel very ambitious: the Megasquirt ECU which can make use of a Wideband O2 in its native mode (meaning not as simulated Narrowband). Then you can program multiple afr targets. Even if you don't want to build your own ECU, the Megamanual is chock full of good stuff.

RB
Hey this Megasquirt ECU is cool. I once built a supercharged Miata using a Link stand-alone ECU, that was fun and very educational. Maybe a turbocharged R1150GS with Megasquirt ECU would be fun.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #265
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Hey this Megasquirt ECU is cool. I once built a supercharged Miata using a Link stand-alone ECU, that was fun and very educational. Maybe a turbocharged R1150GS with Megasquirt ECU would be fun.
Didn't this thread start with someone complaining about pinging? A turbo R1150...ping, ping, boom!

Who needs an ECU? Just stick an FMU on that puppy!
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:12 PM   #266
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Yes, this thread is on 1150 pinging. It would be a stretch but you could say that implementing Megasquirt and a Wideband O2 could permanently cure pinging and surging. ;)
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:39 PM   #267
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Hello from greece.
I read carefully all post about plug in the relay of monotronik.
I think that better for my GS1100 1994 year model is plug 30-87 Stage 2.

Anyway. I was make many modofication on my engine as you see at the pictures.

Pistons 1100s :





High compesion ratio 11,1:1



Hard valve springs







Camshaft from 1100s


Bigger intake and outtake




Custom camshaft rockets




My valve is from 1994 year model, is bigger than 1996 and early model.
Intake valve is 36mm and outtake 31mm.


After all these modofication, i try to make new map for advance and fuell by ecm program for ecu.

The olds map (bmw maps) is these :

Fuell injection map :


Advance map :




I try my new maps

Injection new map:


Advance new map :



By original map, the fuell was too lean, with new maps the fuell if richer.
I try to put wideband soon and i see the real timing fuel ratio.
I try to get the fuell ratio to 13,5-13,8:1 for 1000-6000 rpn and 13,5-12,8 at 6.000-8.000+ rpn

Then i try with plug 30-87a-87 (as gives the bmw original relay) and then 30-86.
I want good performance by lower consumer and lower co.

Thanks for looking.
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Old 11-22-2012, 04:24 AM   #268
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Damn! That's some serious work right there. Good job!
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Old 11-22-2012, 05:04 AM   #269
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by JohnGS1100 View Post
Hello from greece.
I read carefully all post about plug in the relay of monotronik.
I think that better for my GS1100 1994 year model is plug 30-87 Stage 2.

Anyway. I was make many modofication on my engine as you see at the pictures.

...

After all these modofication, i try to make new map for advance and fuell by ecm program for ecu.

The olds map (bmw maps) is these :

Fuell injection map :


Advance map :




I try my new maps

Injection new map:


Advance new map :



By original map, the fuell was too lean, with new maps the fuell if richer.
I try to put wideband soon and i see the real timing fuel ratio.
I try to get the fuell ratio to 13,5-13,8:1 for 1000-6000 rpn and 13,5-12,8 at 6.000-8.000+ rpn

Then i try with plug 30-87a-87 (as gives the bmw original relay) and then 30-86.
I want good performance by lower consumer and lower co.

Thanks for looking.
Really good work. I have several questions.

What software tool are you using to read the tables to your PC? What method do you use to read the tables, can you post instructions? I would like to do same on my 1150.

What do the numbers in fuel map and also the ignition map mean? For example, in the cell 6/700 the number is 63. Does that mean 63% or does it mean 63/128 of 100% or something different? Same question for spark map.

Do you run with an O2 sensor? And Closed Loop?

On an 1100GS, 30-87a, means look for CO potentiometer. Do you have that instead of O2 sensor?

The tables will change for different Coding Plugs. Which coding plug does the table relate to?

The Load axis seems to be in percent. So for example the lowest cell on the load axis is 6. I assume that means 6% of 80 degrees. Does that sound correct to you?

I reprogrammed lambda with a Wideband sensor to 0.94. Now my cruise AFR is 13.8:1 and acceleration AFRs run between 12 and 13:1. The bike loves those numbers. When I try lambda at 0.92 it is even a bit better. My Boxer now runs more like a Harley at low RPMs and less like a Kawasaki. Lots of low end. Oh, I also boosted the fuel pressure to 53 psi to reduce the Adaptation workload on the ECU and to get better fuel atomization.

I measured a maximum spark advance at 10-20 degrees throttle, high RPMs -- about 43 degrees.

That's all for now. I am very impressed by your work. Thanks for joining the thread.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-22-2012 at 05:20 AM
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Old 11-22-2012, 06:48 AM   #270
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I am also interested in this thread. Nice work.

By how many degrees did you modify the cam sprockets? I already have Lennies, and really like the way they work.

Related to the thread title - I have a friend that owns an 1150 gs, 2002. It did suffer from pinging. Tried lots of stuff to the bike, but in the end, it was simple - put in the CCP that BMW has for your bike, just like Robert sais on bmwst.com. That seemed to cure all the pinging.

Dan.
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