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Old 11-22-2012, 06:59 AM   #271
roger 04 rt
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Originally Posted by Dan Căta View Post
I am also interested in this thread. Nice work.

By how many degrees did you modify the cam sprockets? I already have Lennies, and really like the way they work.

Related to the thread title - I have a friend that owns an 1150 gs, 2002. It did suffer from pinging. Tried lots of stuff to the bike, but in the end, it was simple - put in the CCP that BMW has for your bike, just like Robert sais on bmwst.com. That seemed to cure all the pinging.

Dan.
It's the stock plug for me too. Here's my take on it after running a series of data logs.

When you study the parts lists and specs for R1150RT and R1150GS you come up with these differences:

Heads: GS Compression 10.3:1; RT 11.3:1 affects spark advance required
Valve CAMS: Different, no specs
Intake Tubes: GS tubes are longer and narrower than RT. Affects fuel table VE.
Exhaust: Different, Affects fuel table VE
Transmission: GS is geared lower.

I'm going to guess that all the R1150s have the same Closed Loop area for the Motronic. The implication of this is that while the amount of air in a GS vs an RT for any given RPM/TPS point in the Fuel (VE) Tables is slightly different, the target AFR that is implied from the Injector-Pulse duration stored in the Fuel Table is 14.7:1, the stoichiometric ratio for Non-Ethanol gasoline. At WOT I would believe that the target AFRs might be a bit different due to the different engine configurations. For Warm-Up and Start-Up enrichment, the curves look the same based on the data I've taken and studied. I would suspect that based on different VEs, Cams, compression ratio and torque output that the spark timing while riding is different between GS and RT but I haven't measured it. Conformance to the needs of emission regulations will be very similar since there is no variation in law between RT and GS.

So this is a long way of saying that the coding plugs are telling the Motronic to take all the elements in the preceding paragraph into account and select injector pulses that will get you to 14.7:1 in much of the table, and then select timing and dwell. In many operating modes, I bet yellow and pink aren't all that different. But recommending to someone that they ride their RT all the while telling the Motronic that is has the GS tranny, heads, cams, intake tubes and exhaust just doesn't make common sense to me. If something works, it's just happenstance since there is no data showing that a certain 1150 coding plug is, for example, a richer non-EPA plug (the 1100 does have a non-cat coding option as we know).

I can't see any reason to run anything other than the stock Coding Plug, other than someone just happens to like another one.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:12 AM   #272
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I think that the solution of pinging is to write new maps on ecu chip. Lower advance at all rpn.
Did try this your friend ?
Also he can remake the cam sprockets about 6 degrees after TDC, but is not correct because at low rpn the coreect degrees is -2, at middle is -4 and at high rpn is -6 or -8.
The lennies cam sprockets you can remake as i descript in my first post.
I can make new chip for anybody interest as he wish it is easy for me. for high compresion ratio, or for low octance, economy, rich fuell etc.
Thanks.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:35 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Really good work. I have several questions.

What software tool are you using to read the tables to your PC? What method do you use to read the tables, can you post instructions? I would like to do same on my 1150.

What do the numbers in fuel map and also the ignition map mean? For example, in the cell 6/700 the number is 63. Does that mean 63% or does it mean 63/128 of 100% or something different? Same question for spark map.

Do you run with an O2 sensor? And Closed Loop?

On an 1100GS, 30-87a, means look for CO potentiometer. Do you have that instead of O2 sensor?

The tables will change for different Coding Plugs. Which coding plug does the table relate to?

The Load axis seems to be in percent. So for example the lowest cell on the load axis is 6. I assume that means 6% of 80 degrees. Does that sound correct to you?

I reprogrammed lambda with a Wideband sensor to 0.94. Now my cruise AFR is 13.8:1 and acceleration AFRs run between 12 and 13:1. The bike loves those numbers. When I try lambda at 0.92 it is even a bit better. My Boxer now runs more like a Harley at low RPMs and less like a Kawasaki. Lots of low end. Oh, I also boosted the fuel pressure to 53 psi to reduce the Adaptation workload on the ECU and to get better fuel atomization.

I measured a maximum spark advance at 10-20 degrees throttle, high RPMs -- about 43 degrees.

That's all for now. I am very impressed by your work. Thanks for joining the thread.
Reprogram ecu is difficulty to try anybody. You must buy the software from alien tech , one epromm reader, many chips and try to put new value at table as you see.
The value from table is not % from fuell or advance, is a number from area (0..255).

Do you run with an O2 sensor? And Closed Loop?

The close loop doesn't matter on the maps. The ecu takes the signal of "l" sensor from 1000-5.200 rpn after these rpn the loop is close. Also the ecu takes signal from map air sensor at all rpn and correct + or - 10 % from value at the table. So when you put a bigger number the fuell is richer than as the old value on table.
The best result of fuell is 13,5-13,8 at 1000-5000 rpn and 13,5-12,5 at 5.000-8.000 rpn.

The best result for advance is
at +8% at 1000-4.000 rpn, +4% ar 4.000-5.500 amd +2% at 5.000-8.000 rpn. (+8 % is about -6 degress, that is only for bmw monotronic 2.2 and 2.4.)

When you boost the fuel pressure the fuell cosuption is too higher than by a new program with new maps and is not steadily at all rpn. This is not good at low rpn and you have many CO, also is not good for catalytic. The new maps can resolve this problem. The advance must be VARIABLE not the same for all rpn. The BMW maps gives very low advance at low rpn and at high rpn the advance is near the best result. That protection the engine by low octane gasoline.
I hope to undestand my english.

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Old 11-22-2012, 09:33 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
It's the stock plug for me too. Here's my take on it after running a series of data logs.

When you study the parts lists and specs for R1150RT and R1150GS you come up with these differences:

Heads: GS Compression 10.3:1; RT 11.3:1 affects spark advance required
Valve CAMS: Different, no specs
Intake Tubes: GS tubes are longer and narrower than RT. Affects fuel table VE.
Exhaust: Different, Affects fuel table VE
Transmission: GS is geared lower.
Small point, but I am pretty sure that the GS transmission is the same as the RT. The GSA Enduro transmission is lower in 1st and 6th gear (but not all GSA's actually got it, some got the GS transmission).

The final drive is actually lower on the RT (2.92 vs 2.81 for the GS/GSA). Anton has a great page on this: http://www.largiader.com/articles/gearing/
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Old 11-22-2012, 09:33 AM   #275
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Replacing ECM chip or reprograming the flash memory would certainly allow you to change many of the parameters. That is fairly common in the auto world where folks are changing out chips etc.. Hadn't really heard about anybody doing this in the bike world.

There probably is a lot in this area we are not familiar with. Interesting read.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #276
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In greece is usually to remap ecu on bikes and cars, because the climate is too warm and the lean fuell is dangerous on greece summer.

The old BMW bikes are like cars 1995-2002 year model. BMW use technology from cars and Monotronic ecu is a car's ecu.

I think that the new gs1200 have technology like japan's motorcycle.
After all modification on my GS, i try dyno, i hope the engine will gives 95-100 hp by low consumer.

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Old 11-22-2012, 11:57 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by cycleman2 View Post
Replacing ECM chip or reprograming the flash memory would certainly allow you to change many of the parameters. That is fairly common in the auto world where folks are changing out chips etc.. Hadn't really heard about anybody doing this in the bike world.

There probably is a lot in this area we are not familiar with. Interesting read.
Like this? http://www.rhinewestperformance.com/r1150gs.html I was considering this approach before I got my PCIII. You have to open up the motronic and change out the EPROM. The instructions make it look a bit hairy. (Probably no worse than scraping resin off an Ford EEC-V circuit board to get a superchip to work, though! - done that a few times).
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:54 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by JohnGS1100 View Post
...

Do you run with an O2 sensor? And Closed Loop?

The close loop doesn't matter on the maps. The ecu takes the signal of "l" sensor from 1000-5.200 rpn after these rpn the loop is close. Also the ecu takes signal from map air sensor at all rpn and correct + or - 10 % from value at the table. So when you put a bigger number the fuell is richer than as the old value on table.
The best result of fuell is 13,5-13,8 at 1000-5000 rpn and 13,5-12,5 at 5.000-8.000 rpn.

The best result for advance is
at +8% at 1000-4.000 rpn, +4% ar 4.000-5.500 amd +2% at 5.000-8.000 rpn[B][I]. (+8 % is about -6 degress, that is only for bmw monotronic 2.2 and 2.4.)

...
Your writing in English is easy to understand and I'm glad about that since I can't even count to ten in Greek!

I agree with your assessment about the spark map and your comments. I have taken huge amounts of AFR and GS-911 data on the R1150RT so I'm pretty comfortable that I know how the Motronic runs in various modes. My 1150 has its highest advance at 10-20 degrees throttle and RPM above 5000--this area is 43 degrees advance. At WOT the advance is reduced to 20 degrees. I agree there is a LOT of value in a custom Spark Timing map because there is no Closed Loop spark mechanism so changes you make will stick.

Closed Loop occurs at almost all RPMs on the 1150--I have data showing Closed Loop operation from idle to 6500 RPM and TPS from 0.32 degrees to 48 degrees throttle. All it seems to need to go into closed loop in this area is a relatively steady throttle.

I don't quite agree with your comment about raising the number in the fuel table. Above 48 degrees throttle I can see that bigger numbers would add to the fuel but below that, the bike will either run Closed Loop or Open Loop but the fueling will be modified by the Adaptation Values. That said, getting proper balance among all cells is important and to that end tweaking the fuel cells could be worthwhile on a modified motorcycle.

Fuel pressure can be boosted on Closed Loop motorcyles, The real effect on CO is dropping the Closed Loop lambda to 13.8. That will increase CO but you only have two choices, a richer mixture with higher CO or a stock mixture at 14.7 and a weaker running motorcycle. Fuel consumption on my RT has hardly changed because the slightly richer mixture lets me often run in a higher gear.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:13 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canoehead View Post
Small point, but I am pretty sure that the GS transmission is the same as the RT. The GSA Enduro transmission is lower in 1st and 6th gear (but not all GSA's actually got it, some got the GS transmission).

The final drive is actually lower on the RT (2.92 vs 2.81 for the GS/GSA). Anton has a great page on this: http://www.largiader.com/articles/gearing/
Thanks for the link, interesting. I don't know the transmissions that well but if the FD were higher on the RT and the Transmissions were the same, the RT would turn higher RPMS that the GS for the same speed. I don't think that's the case but I only know this from reading the specs. Someone here must know that for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Canoehead View Post
Like this? http://www.rhinewestperformance.com/r1150gs.html I was considering this approach before I got my PCIII. You have to open up the motronic and change out the EPROM. The instructions make it look a bit hairy. (Probably no worse than scraping resin off an Ford EEC-V circuit board to get a superchip to work, though! - done that a few times).
I don't see how anyone can change the fuel table and get a different result with a Stock O2 sensor. Fine tuning the VE balance could occur but the O2 sensor and closed loop will be the final arbiter.

Significant changes could be made though to the Spark tables and they would stick. There is no Knock sensor and hence no Spark "Closed Loop".

I had some emails back and forth with one of the German aftermarket chip companies (don't remember which one) and became convinced that the main differences were in the are of spark timing which I wasn't interesting in monkeying around with.
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:50 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by JohnGS1100 View Post
In greece is usually to remap ecu on bikes and cars, because the climate is too warm and the lean fuell is dangerous on greece summer.

The old BMW bikes are like cars 1995-2002 year model. BMW use technology from cars and Monotronic ecu is a car's ecu.

I think that the new gs1200 have technology like japan's motorcycle.
After all modification on my GS, i try dyno, i hope the engine will gives 95-100 hp by low consumer.
This is really great stuff. The fact that you can swap EPROM's on this bike opens up a whole new world of tuning possibilities. One thing that would be nice is if you or someone with a EPROM reader could post up what the different maps are for some of the popular jumper (CCP) configurations off the stock chip.

However, since I currently own a 1995 BMW M3 car and have played with it since it was new, I wanted to point out here in the USA at least, 1995 was the last year you could swap out EPROM's. This was the last year of the OBD1 emissions standards for cars, starting with 1996 model years it is all OBD2. Tuning the OBD2 is much more complicated, requires re flash of the ECU via the OBD2 port & there is no removable chip. I do not know what the euro models had, but for example the euro e36 M3 had a completely different motor and transmission than the US e36 M3.

Also even these 1995 OBD1 cars had MAF (air mass) sensors, and even prior e30 models had AFM (air flow meters) from mid-late 80's on. I do not think any BMW car had an electronic N-alpha + cat system that I am aware of. Mostly because of the tighter emissions regs on cars vs bikes I think. All of these cars benefit greatly from different maps, even with no hardware mods there is a lot of performance & power to be gained, not just at WOT.

Anyway swapping EPROM's is a piece of cake. What concerns me is the fact that the N-alpha type ECU on the R1150 relies so much on the O2 sensor, across so much of the RPM-TPS map.

Only one way to tell though...

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Old 11-22-2012, 04:29 PM   #281
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I try to tell that does not matter the close or open loop at low rpn for more power. The fuell ratio near 14,7:1 is the best result at low rpn. if the fuell being richer the more power is very very little (by rich fuell) at 1.000-5.000 and is disproportionately by fuel economy. Catalytic destroyed, exchaust gives more CO the sparks being black and Create deposits in cylinder head because the temperature is too low for best burning.
At these rpn (1.000-5000) needs more advance, that mean more torque by same fuell consuption, so fuell economy by same power. I think that gives the leny cam sprockets. But these spockets is not good for high rpn because the advance comes too high at all rpn.

The best maps (for 1.000-5000 rpn) must cimbined with close loop (wich correct by O2 sensor the richer fuell) and map with more advance about 8-10% That i was do on my ecu in my car and in my GS. I saw perceptible benefit more torque (i think about 10 %) and very low fuell concuption. The lean fuell at these rpn is not dangerous for temperature, because is too slowly for this big engine.

This setup is best for easy exchast with catalytic.

The problem by this setup begin after 5.500 rpn. Two is the problems :

1. Exchast with catalytic (very high temperature).
2. The choice from equipment (BMW) in monotronic relay.

The pink monotronic relay continue the close loop (i think) and the yellow open the loop. Also the pink relay gives a different signal to ecu from O2 sensor or map sensor or TPS or all together (does not matter).

BMW comes by close loop for country wich requirements very very low CO and emissions and country wich requirements standards by EURO-2, EURO-3,4 etc. Maybe gives another color relay i dont know.
But I believe these relay can not change maps on ecu, because they are not many maps in monotronic chip.
The chip i was read has 1 map for fuell injection and 1 for advance. No map for cold start, no other temperatures map, no corection map, no safe map, nothing that i saw on others ecu. Only 1 set map. That explains the chocks for cold starts. So is impossible by this relay to can change dissimilarity the many many value at table because this can do only a last generation ecu wich takes many parameters than monotronic with eeprom or computer chip read and rewrite continuously variable. The monotronic ecu has one read and not rewrite eprom 256kb. That happen on all 1100 and 1150 gs, rt, r, rs and s model. 1993-2002 model.

After this year comes euro-3 standrards, so bmw put twin sparks for better burning and very lean fuel and close loop at all rpn buy they dont change ecu. They was make update to 2.4 monotronic and comes by the same 256 kb chip. The exchaust system is the same, that is a tryk from bmw for low cost. They dont put triodik catalytic converter, they dont put water cooling. This is a big problem on country with warm climate.

So :

I believe that the best choice that can do somebody is remap tables of ecu and if have relay monotronic with close loop, must be change to open loop. But the change of maps must being carfully by a wideband on bike and many test at the road. The fuell ratio on nikes with catalytic must be 14-14,7:1 until 5.000 rpn and after can be 13,8-12,8:1, is safe for catalytiv because at these rpn they are higth and safe temperatures for best burning. The air cooling is enough.

After these, the bike travel by lower consumption by high troque and has high power for high speed after 180 km/h.

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Old 11-22-2012, 06:20 PM   #282
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You're doing really interesting stuff here and making lots of changes. Still I think I can offer you some insights that are specific to at least the 1150 and maybe the 1100 too.

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I try to tell that does not matter the close or open loop at low rpn for more power. The fuell ratio near 14,7:1 is the best result at low rpn. if the fuell being richer the more power is very very little (by rich fuell) at 1.000-5.000 and is disproportionately by fuel economy. Catalytic destroyed, exchaust gives more CO the sparks being black and Create deposits in cylinder head because the temperature is too low for best burning.
At these rpn (1.000-5000) needs more advance, that mean more torque by same fuell consuption, so fuell economy by same power. I think that gives the leny cam sprockets. But these spockets is not good for high rpn because the advance comes too high at all rpn.
You're right that the theoretical power increase from a richer mixture at low RPM is very small. However, at least over here in the US, if not everywhere, the R1150 just doesn't run its best, even with twin spark. betweem 1800 and 3500 RPM. If you richen the mixture 4% in that range it transforms the running of the motor, from feeling too lean to just right. I've logged many miles and a great deal of data to reach that conclusion. The catalytic converter is not destroyed and in any case they don't test them most places here and most three way cats are okay over a +-5% range according to Bosch. I'm getting no carbon build up running 13.8:1 Closed Loop for a year. The cylinder head temps are a little higher and the exhaust is only about 50 degrees F cooler. Better for the valves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGS1100 View Post
The pink monotronic relay continue the close loop (i think) and the yellow open the loop. Also the pink relay gives a different signal to ecu from O2 sensor or map sensor or TPS or all together (does not matter).

No map for cold start, no other temperatures map, no corection map, no safe map, nothing that i saw on others ecu.
We call them relays but they're just jumper plugs. For the R1150 every combination is Closed Loop. For R1100, plugs with no grounded 86 and 87 use a map that is about 14:1 in the cruising range and only those maps on the R1100 are Open Loop. The pink plug has different VE and maybe different timing but no change to O2 processing.

And there are maps for Start enrichment, warm up enrichment, oil temperature. I believe you are correct though there is no safe map. There are however several apparently hard coded Limp Home functions. The reason it's not good to remove the O2 sensor on the 1150 is that it spreads fueling while you cruise over a 10% range--AFR up, AFR down. This caused Dynojet to build its PC III USB with a Wideband O2 for Oilheads. Even Dynojet suggests that Wideband O2 is better than Open Loop. This got the Harley riders upset so Dynojet had to explain that Open Loop was better for Harleys but Wideband O2 was better for Oilheads.

If you're not seeing multiple fueling maps is it possible that your SW tool isn't finding them all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGS1100 View Post
So:
I believe that the best choice that can do somebody is remap tables of ecu and if have relay monotronic with close loop, must be change to open loop. But the change of maps must being carefully by a wideband on bike and many test at the road. The fuell ratio on nikes with catalytic must be 14-14,7:1 until 5.000 rpn and after can be 13,8-12,8:1, is safe for catalytiv because at these rpn they are higth and safe temperatures for best burning. The air cooling is enough.

After these, the bike travel by lower consumption by high troque and has high power for high speed after 180 km/h.
So if you're worried about the Cat, just set the Wideband O2 to 14.1:1. It makes a remarkable improvement in driving on the Oilheads even if everything else on the bike is stock. I have run 13.8 and the catalytic converter is cooler, without damage, because there is no extra oxygen to oxidize the fuel. Let me repeat, it does not overheat at all at 13.8. If a lean engine misfires however, then there is fuel and oxygen and then you do get overheating. But the bikes run so well at 13.8-14.1 with a shifted O2--no cams, no remapping, no new valves, no new sprockets. It's a nearly free upgrade ($160 for the LC-1).

There are two effects which lead to almost no more fuel consumed. Between 14.7 and 13.8 you get about 0.5% more power for every 1% more fuel. And because the engine runs so much better, you can often shift up a gear and run in an area of improved BSFC on the fuel-torque curve.


Hope this all makes sense for you and adds to your understanding. Keep up the interesting reports.

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Old 11-23-2012, 12:19 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post

You're right that the theoretical power increase from a richer mixture at low RPM is very small. However, at least over here in the US, if not everywhere, the R1150 just doesn't run its best, even with twin spark. betweem 1800 and 3500 RPM. If you richen the mixture 4% in that range it transforms the running of the motor, from feeling too lean to just right.

I think you 're right for lower troque between 1800-3500 rpn. In my gs i resolved this by remap, i give 15 % more advance and 10 % more fuell. But is not enough for me, because i drive my bike in city. The gs1100 have long 1 and 2 gear, so i think to put a final drive from R850R. The final drive from gs have ratio 3:1. too long for city, but perfect for travels.
So i make many modification to engine. I think the higher Compression Ratio 11,1:1 is very better for low rpn. This mod by more advance gives 10-15% more troque beetwen 1.200-1.800 rpn (so i can drive with 2 gear very slowly) also gives more troque about 8-10% at 1.800-3.500 rpn.

Another problem is the close system exchast but i love that - it is so easy, i try at the future to replace by another final exchast, anyway.
Many thanks for interesting discussion.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:58 AM   #284
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CCP relays & jumper config.

John,
OK this is VERY interesting. What you are saying is maybe the stock motronic has no extra fuel or spark maps, but that the STRUCTURE of the inner control loops is what is changed by say pink vs yellow relay. That would actually make perfect sense. We were discussing something like this earlier, wondering what the "no cat" version did because clearly it did not need to do all the rich/lean oscillation for a cat, and as you pointed out did not need to keep that cat hot since it was not there.

The simplest way to do that from a controller architecture standpoint would be just change the areas where system runs open vs closed loop, but also it could be something hardcoded (not on the EPROM) that parameters (gains) of a basic digital controller (like a PID). There also might be differences in how the trim tables were used, again keeping the fuel & spark tables identical but altering how they are used based on which relay is present.

Hmmm. I think based on what you've said one of the first things I'd like to do is determine where closed loop runs "no cat" vs cat relay.

Roger I also wonder if you are possibly running your bike too rich for the cat.

Anyway John this is great stuff, thank you for joining the discussion and sharing your insights. Also which Alienware tool were you using, I cannot find R11xx BMW on their website as something supported by their software.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:20 AM   #285
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dyno charts for chips

The website that Mr C posted up has some dynos for their chips

GS:


RT:



They also discuss the various CCP otpions here:

http://www.rhinewestperformance.com/codingplug.html

Quote:
CODING PLUG INFORMATION

The Rhine West Performance software for “R” series motorcycles is tuned around two types of exhaust systems: the “high back-pressure” version and the “free-flow” version.


The “high back-pressure” versions includes the stock exhaust system, and various aftermarket manufacturers. Typically any exhaust system that uses a diversionary baffle system, increases the pressure on the exhaust gasses and should run on the stock exhaust system setting. This tuning map is accessed by having the stock coding plug for the motorcycle installed.


The “free-flow system” is any exhaust system that would be considered “free-flow” or a “straight pipe”. This tuning map is accessed by removing the coding plug from the motorcycle.


The coding plug determines various tuning maps that the control unit uses to run the engine. By removing or installing the stock coding plug, the owner can switch between maps tuned for “free-flow” exhausts systems or “high back-pressure” exhaust systems.


We have seen some coding plugs that are modified from the stock condition, meaning that the internal jumpers have been cut inside the coding plug. To check the coding plug, simply find the resistance between the pins of the coding plug. If the coding plug is properly configured all pins should be a closed circuit to one another.


Each U.S. specification motorcycle was delivered with a particular coding plug installed. The chip is designed to run with this coding plug in place when the high back-pressure exhaust system is installed on the motorcycle. To determine the correct coding plug for your motorcycle see the chart below.
It is not clear whether they are running cat or not cat, I assume cat. But they also imply that the no cat version is no plug on ALL models. More testing.
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