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Old 11-23-2012, 05:11 AM   #286
JohnGS1100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post

Hmmm. I think based on what you've said one of the first things I'd like to do is determine where closed loop runs "no cat" vs cat relay.

Roger I also wonder if you are possibly running your bike too rich for the cat.
I think that the open lopp by remap ecu, the fuell being too rich when open fast the throtle (acceleration). I must put wideband, i will do that when finish all modification. i try with pink and yellow relay by same maps on ecu.


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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Anyway John this is great stuff, thank you for joining the discussion and sharing your insights. Also which Alienware tool were you using, I cannot find R11xx BMW on their website as something supported by their software.
You need old tool. I send you pm.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:56 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
John,
OK this is VERY interesting. What you are saying is maybe the stock motronic has no extra fuel or spark maps, but that the STRUCTURE of the inner control loops is what is changed by say pink vs yellow relay. That would actually make perfect sense. We were discussing something like this earlier, wondering what the "no cat" version did because clearly it did not need to do all the rich/lean oscillation for a cat, and as you pointed out did not need to keep that cat hot since it was not there.
It's an interesting possibility but only the 1100 has a CO Pot, No Cat Map. Changing the inner loop control structures is a possibility but I've never read about that happening in an ECU. Even the Megasquirt which is designed for multiple ECUs worked on robustness of their single loop. It is possible that there are different RPM ranges but someone would have to test and measure the effect for me to believe it. The most likely thing happening here is that the Alienware software isn't finding the additional maps.

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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
The simplest way to do that from a controller architecture standpoint would be just change the areas where system runs open vs closed loop, but also it could be something hardcoded (not on the EPROM) that parameters (gains) of a basic digital controller (like a PID). There also might be differences in how the trim tables were used, again keeping the fuel & spark tables identical but altering how they are used based on which relay is present.
I'm pretty sure the areas are the same based on my measurements. Powercommander, in structuring their product assumes the same thing too. It's tempting to think that there are algorithmic differences between the models but it doesn't seem too likely. The R1150s only have three defined maps, none of the are no-cat. Pink 30-87-87a, Yellow 30-87 and Light Gray 30-86-87.

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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Hmmm. I think based on what you've said one of the first things I'd like to do is determine where closed loop runs "no cat" vs cat relay.
I've also tried no-plug and 30-87a on the 1150--they also run Closed Loop in the same way as the defined Coding Plugs. These plugs all seem more similar than different.

[QUOTE=fred flintstone;20102058]Roger I also wonder if you are possibly running your bike too rich for the cat./QUOTE]

When I kicked off this project, it was one of the first things on my mind. But the mixture I'm running is fine for the cat--and anyway, it's 9 years old. A slightly rich mixture just doesn't get oxidized as well as a 14.7:1 mixture. (I run 13.8, like you've said you do. And like Power Commander does for all its BMW PC IIIs and even its PC V.) Most agree (and it's from the Bosch handbook) that there's a +-5% range of mixtures that get oxidized so 14.1:1 would be fine, if you cared, I don't. The issue that John was concerned about is overheating. A properly combusting 13.8:1 mixture uses almost all the oxygen so the cat will run COOLER, not hotter, because there is no Oxygen to support the oxidation reaction once the oxygen stored the the Cerium is used up. What really "lights up" and burns up a Catalytic Converter is misfiring--the fuel hasn't been burned in the combustion chamber and the oxygen therefore hasn't been depleted--a meltdown in the making because of all that O2 and unburned fuel hitting the cat. That was a lesson learned when I drove my Xterra after a squirrel chewed off a couple plug wires.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-23-2012 at 06:03 AM
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Old 11-23-2012, 06:02 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
The website that Mr C posted up has some dynos for their chips

GS:


RT:



They also discuss the various CCP otpions here:

http://www.rhinewestperformance.com/codingplug.html



It is not clear whether they are running cat or not cat, I assume cat. But they also imply that the no cat version is no plug on ALL models. More testing.
First off, buyer beware on Dyno claims from aftermarket chip manufacturers. Second, they are very clear that the plug matrix they show is for their product only. Their plug claims have nothing to do with what the standard chips do.

As I mentioned a while ago, communications with one of the companies indicated their changes primarily affected top RPM and Spark Advance.

My worry would be about Dwell managment, There are also tables for Dwell that need to be found and modified if you change spark timing. Here is an idea of how the Motronic varies Spark with RPM and TPS. Dwell has a similar looking plot--very sophisticated.


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Old 11-23-2012, 06:43 AM   #289
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JohnGS1100,

How do you get the accuracy in the location of the pins when you weld up the stock sprocket?

If you have even half a degree difference the engine will not be so smooth.

I am always amazed how much effort people put in to replicate something already out there in the market even with a lifetime warranty.

The Rockwell on the stock sprockets is 21 compared to 54 for my sprockets so it worries me to weld them up and try to get the accuracy.

The Rockets Sprockets pay for themselves in short order with the savings in fuel as stated by many customers.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:12 AM   #290
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Roger,
I hate to keep dinging on this pinging but there is clearly a difference on singe spark motors for the CCP/jumper/whatever for cat vs no cat. Plus now we have the chip maker saying the same thing, whether you believe them or not is of course up to you.

Then now we have John coming in and saying fuel/spark look up tables are identical for all jumper configs, and there is simply not another place for the difference in maps to be implemented than the broader control system logic as I hypothesized above.

For whatever reason my bike and many others here have benefited from the jumper mod as far as ameliorating or outright curing pinging, it is a matter of finding out how that is being implemented. John seems to be saying at least on euro models it runs open loop in a larger area, we don't know.

Anyway all is good in search of knowledge, great discussion all around. I am going to read up on the emgo and the alienware, try to figure out what I want to do. It has occurred to me that maybe tearing out the entire system and running a standalone with a MAF sensor might be the way to go. Before doing that I'd like to understand better how the OEM system works, then exploit the PCIII fully. For the time being at least (plus it is winter here dammit) the PCIII plus wideband is so great of an improvement over what was running before, I am hesitant to change anything but AFR and fuel tables, + jumper back to yellow/no plug (and static timing maybe).

edit: another curious thing is why the RT uses a pink relay and the GS a yellow one (or none as in Mr C's case).
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
Roger,
I hate to keep dinging on this pinging but there is clearly a difference on singe spark motors for the CCP/jumper/whatever for cat vs no cat. Plus now we have the chip maker saying the same thing, whether you believe them or not is of course up to you.

Then now we have John coming in and saying fuel/spark look up tables are identical for all jumper configs, and there is not other place for the difference in maps to be implemented than the broader control system logic as I hypothesized above.

For whatever reason my bike and many others here have benefited from the jumper mod as far as ameliorating or outright curing pinging, it is a matter of finding out how that is being implemented. John seems to be saying at least on euro models it runs open loop in a larger area, we don't know.

Anyway all is good in search of knowledge, great discussion all around. I am going to read up on the emgo and the alienware, try to figure out what I want to do. It has occurred to me that maybe tearing out the entire system and running a standalone with a MAF sensor might be the way to go. Before doing that I'd like to understand better how the OEM system works, then exploit the PCIII fully. For the time being at leat the PCIII plus wideband is so great of an improvement over what was running before, I am hesitant to change anything but AFR and fuel tables, + jumper back to yellow/no plug (and static timing maybe).
I think John is talking about the R1100 Euro model which has a No_Cat Coding Plug, in fact it has a couple of them. Until someone measures it, the evidence I've seen is that they all Close the Loop in the same way and that the most likely scenario is there are tables that John hasn't found. For instance, there are trims that he didn't find yet.

Keep in mind too, that the Power Commander model is the same for all R1150s (all years, all configurations), other than that they use different length cables between GS and RT according to Dynojet.

As far as RhineWest goes they say explicitly they are referring to their chips.

Speaking of the 87a only, it goes Closed Loop, no question. I would just like to see some data, AFR and GS-911, on an R1150GS that shows what it does. It could be anecdotal, it could be timing which would persist, or it could be fueling which would get adapted out.

I don't have any problem with continuing to bat this around, I just don't seen any way to take this anywhere without a measurement that produces data different from mine.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:31 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
...

edit: another curious thing is why the RT uses a pink relay and the GS a yellow one (or none as in Mr C's case).
It is clear why the RT uses a different plug:

Different compression ratio
Different intake
Different exhaust
Different heads
Different valve cams
Different gearing (I believe)

The exact reason for the different Coding Plugs is to tell the Motronic what engine configuration it's running.

The R1100 Coding Plugs even can be used to delineate R850 and low power R850 on the Motronic MA 2.2. Those would certainly have different maps.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:48 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
It is clear why the RT uses a different plug:

Different compression ratio
Different intake
Different exhaust
Different heads
Different valve cams
Different gearing (I believe)

The exact reason for the different Coding Plugs is to tell the Motronic what engine configuration it's running.

The R1100 Coding Plugs even can be used to delineate R850 and low power R850 on the Motronic MA 2.2. Those would certainly have different maps.
And soooooo if all that is dependent on just swapping a jumper relay...hopefully you see what I am getting at. If not let's just wait for data.

Swapping a relay on my R1150GS single spark obviously does something, it's just not clear what but we have a better idea of where, and it is maybe not the fuel/spark base maps. It is not unreasonable to expect a non cat configuration is floating around in there.

I am very grateful for all the experimentation & results you are sharing from your twin spark RT, but maybe for answering the question of why the single spark GS seems to like the jumper mod it is not the right platform/configuration, and somebody (like me maybe) has to repeat your measurements on a single spark.
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Old 11-23-2012, 07:55 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by fred flintstone View Post
And soooooo if all that is dependent on just swapping a jumper relay...hopefully you see what I am getting at. If not let's just wait for data.

Swapping a relay on my R1150GS single spark obviously does something, it's just not clear what but we have a better idea of where, and it is maybe not the fuel/spark base maps. It is not unreasonable to expect a non cat configuration is floating around in there.

I am very grateful for all the experimentation & results you are sharing from your twin spark RT, but maybe for answering the question of why the single spark GS seems to like the jumper mod it is not the right platform/configuration, and somebody (like me maybe) has to repeat your measurements on a single spark.
I agree that there are differences in the VE balance among cells in the table and certainly Spark and Dwell timing, certainly table driven. Since I have measured seemingly identical Closed Loop, Start Up enrichment and Warm up enrichment, I think it is most likely that it is just the tables that are different--perhaps top RPM.

But I think we agree that to know it needs to be measured. And I think we have had similar results with a slight shift to richer Closed Loop mixtures. Good discussion.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:02 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
But I think we agree that to know it needs to be measured. And I think we have had similar results with a slight shift to richer Closed Loop mixtures. Good discussion.
Yes, agree 100%. Keep in mind I am running no cat. I think my dynojet AFR meter is arriving today or tomorrow, perhaps I can get at least a few qualitative back to back runs in with identical PCIII settings but stock yellow CCP vs "no cat" 30-87a jumper. Before deep winter sets in that is. It is cold here but not too cold just yet, highs in the low 50's. Mountain passes are too cold & icy though.
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Old 11-23-2012, 10:50 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
It is clear why the RT uses a different plug:

Different compression ratio
Different intake
Different exhaust
Different heads
Different valve cams
Different gearing (I believe)

The exact reason for the different Coding Plugs is to tell the Motronic what engine configuration it's running.

The R1100 Coding Plugs even can be used to delineate R850 and low power R850 on the Motronic MA 2.2. Those would certainly have different maps.
Rogger.

No, does'nt matter all these differents for the plug. I have gs1100 with pink plug. As i said, i try by yellow plug and wideband at next week and i will post all values at all rpn, acceleration, etc. The best map for cat models on all situation,is a fuell ratio must be between 14,7 (iddle), 14,1-13,8 at 1.200-5.000 and after 13,8-12,5 at higth rpn. The richer fuell at 7.500+ rrpn is not dangerous for cat, if the temperautre from exchast is between 850-950 C. Not belove, not above. Below 850 C the is dangerous for cat, above 950 is dangerous for engine (valves, pistons etc.).
Also for secret maps, i dont believe it for model wich comes with chocks on left grip. So there are not cold map for cold begin.

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JohnGS1100,

How do you get the accuracy in the location of the pins when you weld up the stock sprocket?

If you have even half a degree difference the engine will not be so smooth.

I am always amazed how much effort people put in to replicate something already out there in the market even with a lifetime warranty.

The Rockwell on the stock sprockets is 21 compared to 54 for my sprockets so it worries me to weld them up and try to get the accuracy.

The Rockets Sprockets pay for themselves in short order with the savings in fuel as stated by many customers.

Lennie

The custom cam sprockets wich make, i try to make same both. I put a new pin about 3 mm left than original sprockets. After puting on engine, the engine working good but sound a little pings (by my old modification maps). So i make new maps by lower advance and now working well. Next week i will put wideband and i will remap the fuell map for best fuell consuption on acceleration and for best power. I hope to do well this. Your sprockets what is the different by original ?

Thanks.

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Old 11-23-2012, 02:08 PM   #297
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John,

I have new CNC sprockets made with 9 degrees advanced timing and have done this since 2000. They are nitrited and are top quality.

When I overlay my Rocket Sprocket with the stock sprocket it is not 3 mm as the locationg pin hole partially overlays the stock pressed locator.

Once fitted they help reduce the pinging, smooth engine vibration, reduce a dip in the powerband on some models at the 4,000 to 4,500 rpm range and improve fuel consumption that will pay for the cost of the sprockets in short order.

Riding style changes with short shifting of the gears and the ability to run one gear higher than normal in all riding situations thus improving fuel consumption. There is less need to downshift for overtaking even two up. Some customers report being able to open the throttle fully at around 2,000 rpms in top gear and the engine pulls cleanly under accelaration.

It is interesting what you are doing with the chips and I may be interested in talking to you in the near future about them.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:12 PM   #298
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Rogger.

No, does'nt matter all these differents for the plug. I have gs1100 with pink plug. As i said, i try by yellow plug and wideband at next week and i will post all values at all rpn, acceleration, etc. The best map for cat models on all situation,is a fuell ratio must be between 14,7 (iddle), 14,1-13,8 at 1.200-5.000 and after 13,8-12,5 at higth rpn. The richer fuell at 7.500+ rrpn is not dangerous for cat, if the temperautre from exchast is between 850-950 C. Not belove, not above. Below 850 C the is dangerous for cat, above 950 is dangerous for engine (valves, pistons etc.).
Also for secret maps, i dont believe it for model wich comes with chocks on left grip. So there are not cold map for cold begin.
Hi John,
What I'm most interested in seeing is the no Coding Plug map. It may be that to change maps you have to power down the Motronic, letting it clear, and then repower it with the Coding Plug configuration that you want to measure. I'm not positive about the correct protocol to change to get maps too the location where your alien tech SW looks for them. We also don't know if they are compressed in the non working storage areas.

I don't think there are "secret" maps, I just don't think you've accessed them all.

On Closed Loop motorcycles with a Stock O2 sensor, the only AFR you can get is 14.7:1. Unless you are Open Loop you can't select an AFR except above 48 degrees throttle (at least that's the number on an 1150RT)

Lastly, there is unquestionably an after-start enrichment sequence, a warm up enrichment, an acceleration enrichment, a deceleration enleanment. I don't know which have tables, but if not tables, they are all arrays. How do I know this and why am I sure? I have dozens of plots and can "watch" the change in all the parameters I've named. An interesting thing to compare is cold start enrichment sequence vs hot start enrichment (there is one). I think if you stay with it you will find all the arrays and tables.
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:15 PM   #299
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........
It is interesting what you are doing with the chips and I may be interested in talking to you in the near future about them.
Your sprockets work well at middle rpn, but i think that after 7.000 + has problem by the very high (9 degress) advance. At these rpn the more advance by lean fuell mayby make problem to engine. I think that this problem resolved with new maps on a chip by low advance at high rpn and a little rich fuell . I dont know how it is working at iddle (?).
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Old 11-23-2012, 02:37 PM   #300
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On Closed Loop motorcycles with a Stock O2 sensor, the only AFR you can get is 14.7:1. Unless you are Open Loop you can't select an AFR except above 48 degrees throttle (at least that's the number on an 1150RT)
RB
Yes you are right, but what can you do if you put a free air filter (K/N) or a free exchaust system ? By these mods, the original maps can not correct the AFR. This is the first problem.
The second problem is the very low advance (by original maps), so the consuption is bad. Believe me, that when you open thorttle at 2.000 rpn (as said Lennie) you have problem. There are not correct value on table on original maps. This can resolved by new camshaft sprockets or by new maps. BMW as i said, gives very safe maps for all situations and for all country wich requirements very low CO and emissions. So you can't take the fuell torque and power that can offer your engine.
I do this to many car's and the final results are very very better.

Look please what i was do to my citroen ax car. I put engine from 1300 peugeot rallye, by many modification free air, de-cat, exchaust from saxo 1.6 (very easy) manifold exchast very thins, motorcraft platinum sparks, motorcraft ignition coli etc., this engine can working only by new maps. I was remap the chip on ecu about 20 times until AFR is 14:1-13,8 at 1.000-5.000, and 13,8-12,5:1 after 5.000 rpn. All mechanical and many friends said that i needed new after market ecu, new sensors (the cost was very high). At final remaps the engine can working at 8.000 continius, at these rpn the afr is 12,5-12,8:1 and the temperature of manifold is 850-900 C). The AFR at full aceleration from 2.000 rpn - 8.000 is 13,8-12,5. The good is that this engine working about 3 years very good and by lower consumer, about 6-7l/100 km at full aceleration. I measure the compess by a pressure gauge and continues to surprise me, is 13- 13,5 bar at all cylinders, like the first time before 3 years. Can runs 200KM/h at 8.000 rpn continius and safe, when somebody drive it, he think that he drive a 2.000 cc engine (lol).
Look it, the counter is correct and gives real KM/H like a gps. I was not run full because it was big traffic.

(sorry for off topic) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDG3OEvbCjA

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