Design the Perfect ADV. Bike.

[ShortOnSkill]

My Dream Bike:

Engine Layout: I'm not an engine guy. My uneducated preference is for something between 650 and 800cc. Building a new motor from the ground up would be sweet. However, parts need to be available. I'd like the engine to be popular and used on more than one bike. BMW's 800cc twin seems to fit the bill. So does Suzuki's 650cc twin. Focus on light and low center of gravity.

Fuel Delivery: Injected so that I can go from sea level to 6,000 feet (or higher) without making adjustments.

Cooling: Liquid cooled for hot slow days.

Driveline: Chain with automatic oiler. Less unsprung weight. Easy to change gearing. Sadly, must be replaced every 25K miles or so.

Suspension: This is where the $$ should go. Fully adjustable front and rear. Traditional inverted forks. Along the lines of KTM or BMW's HP2. Need both spoked and cast wheel options. BMW has done an outstanding job by providing two wheel sizes with the HP2. Prefer keeping lots of suspension travel with the ability to rapidly change fork height.

Electronics: Lots of power for toys (alternator). Several outlets near the instrument panel. It's a given that complex electronics (FI, etc) will break. Try to make problems diagnosable with car equipment. If my bike loses power in a remote area, a honda mechanic's computer should integrate with my bike. He may not have the part, but he could analyze what failed.

Fuel Capacity: Agree with the idea of a 250 mile range. Love the idea of moving fuel weight lower with alternative tank design.

Fluff:

• Made by a large company with dealers/parts found in many towns
• Alternately, make parts identical to autos whenever possible. For example, spark plug wires, coils, and some clutch components could share dimensions to a honda civic. Publicize this fact. Owners in remote territory could fix minor issues at a local parts house.
• Frame: Why not design crash guards that augment the frame? The frame would be designed to protect some parts - like the cooling system. Crash guards would be on design pages from day one. They should integrate with the system and rather than as a work-around by an aftermarket company.
• Brakes: ABS that can be turned off.
• Air filter that can be inspected/changed without removing the tank.
• Trim: Pay lots of attention to ergonomics and air flow. Nominal turbulents and comfortable for a day long ride.

[PaleHearse]

Originally Posted by soundasleeprecording

Here's a decent one:

Take the Suzuki 650 (V-strom) twin powerplant, shoehorn it into a RMZ-style frame, with a little longer swingarm than an RMZ (stability), and tune it for grunt vs. HP. 50-60hp, plenty of aftermkt stuff already available.
Put 3.2 gallon tank on it, with an option for a 6 (or let Acerbis do it).
Decent off-road Kayaba suspension - 9-10" travel is fine. 21/18 set-up, with Pirelli Scorpion A/Ts, 300-320mm single front disc. Design a fairing that emulates the old Honda NX-650 Dominator or Yamaha Tenere (integrated fairing/instrument panel/radiator shrouds/lighting/turnsignals flows-into-the-tank) that can coexist with either size fuel tank. 6 speeds, 6th being an "overdrive" of sorts. Decent conical handlebars (Tag/Renthal), and decent digital gauges. Bright, HID dual headlights (seen the Yamaha Dakar bikes?) Snake the exhaust through the frame, none of this under the engine stuff, bring the twin mufflers (KTM/Ducati-style) out on both sides the rear fender. Healthy skid/bash plate that carries a usable toolkit down low under the radiator (sealed compartment). Optional soft-molded saddlebag/tailbag combo, and possibly an optional 19"/17" wheelset. Standard w/ a low front fender, optional RMZ bolt-on high fender kit.
350lbs- MAX. ABS? leave it to the 'Stroms.

$8250.00

Kawasaki thinks it owns this category in the US with the KLR (which has now become more V-Strommish), and it does, really (in Big 4 terms), but as soon as one of the other three toss one into the mix....

Both Yamaha & Honda are close with the Varadero & the XT660R, but both need suspension help & weight loss. Oh yeah, and US availability.

Some interesting ideas about the exhaust.. were you thinking about making the exhaust somehow part of the frame? I'm thinking there would be some head and corrosion issues to deal with there perhaps.

It's also important to remember that we're creating a tour bike, and for just about all, weight is sacraficed for larger engine displacement (to a point).

We're more focused on layout at this point then we are with details like exact size of the engine. HP can be gained in several ways.. but again, we can sort out that detail in the second half of this.

Please edit your existing post and adjust the layout to fit that of post #1 if you would. You have some great ideas.. if you lay them out more or less as structured, it will make your ideas easier to grasp.

Thanks...

[KoolBreeze]

Originally Posted by autolycos

+1 on crash-able.

agree and good point.

[PaleHearse]

Originally Posted by ShortOnSkill

My Dream Bike:

• Made by a large company with dealers/parts found in many towns
  • Alternately, make parts identical to autos whenever possible. For example, spark plug wires, coils, and some clutch components could share dimensions to a honda civic. Publicize this fact. Owners in remote territory could fix minor issues at a local parts house.
• Is light with a low center of gravity.
• Motor: I'm not an engine guy. My uneducated preference is for something liquid cooled and injected between 650 and 800cc. Building a new motor from the ground up would be sweet. However, parts need to be available. I'd like the engine to be popular and used on more than one bike. BMW's 800cc twin seems to fit the bill. So does Suzuki's 650cc twin.
• Frame: Why not design crash guards into the frame? The frame would be designed to protect some parts - like the cooling system. Crash guards would be on design pages from day one. They should integrate with the system and rather than as a work-around by an aftermarket company.
• Suspension: This is where the $$ should go. Fully adjustable front and rear. Traditional inverted forks. Along the lines of KTM or BMW's HP2.
• Wheels: Need both spoked and cast options. BMW has done an outstanding job by providing two wheel sizes with the HP2.
• Fuel: Agree with the idea of a 250 mile range. Love the idea of moving fuel weight lower with alternative tank design.
• Electrical: Lots of power for toys. Try to make problems diagnosable with car equipment. If my bike loses power in a remote area, a honda mechanic's computer should integrate with my bike. He may not have the part, but he could analyze what failed.
• Final Drive: Chain with automatic oiler. Less unsprung weight. Easy to change gearing. Sadly, must be replaced every 25K miles or so.
• Brakes: ABS that can be turned off.
• Trim: Pay lots of attention to ergonomics and air flow. Nominal turbulents and comfortable for a day long ride.

One of your ideas gave me a hardon it was so good... duplicate parts!

Take a look for example and find (perhaps not the civic) but the most prolific parts in these areas:

Pistons
clutch
ignition
bearings (for wheels)
valves

Some other's I'm sure... and see how many you can make cross over.

Note, some of the parts may even be from different vehicles... A piston from a toyota, a clutch from a honda.. etc... and yes.. advertise it. BMW (and motoguzzi) didn't do enough (in my opinion) to make it common knowledge that they shared quite a few parts in the R100 era.
Knowing where to get parts, and what will fit, when your out in the middle of nowhere looking for a brake or clutch part would be, to say the least, helpful.

Shortonskill, if you would, please edit your origional post to conform with the layout in post #3. I'm trying to get folks to catagroize their ideas into some general catagories for layout. That would be a big help, you have some great bullet ideas. Any ideas you have in your bullets that don't fit.. just stick them at the end.

Nice feedback... let's tidy up.

[ShortOnSkill]

Originally Posted by PaleHearse

It's also important to remember that we're creating a tour bike, and for just about all, weight is sacraficed for larger engine displacement (to a point).

Make it as dirt worthy as possible while keeping it fun to ride throughout my continent. I want to be able to walk after ten hours riding and I need at least 250 miles without refuelling.

[PaleHearse]

Originally Posted by KoolBreeze

agree and good point.

Shortonskill touched on one point that I think has been reflected in several posts here in that the bikes crash protection system should be the FIRST frigging thing they design. To me, having it survive a slow speed horizontalization is more impotant then it having an engine. Without either one.. your a pedestrian.. and if you have to push it into the woods.. at least you'll know that when you tip it over you can walk out again... so not having an engine on a bike that would be disabled by an enevitable go down would be an important safety feature to keep you out of trouble.

Now no amount of crash protection is going to completely protect the bike... so I suppose the reason they leave that to the aftermarket guys are legal ones rather then design oversight... someone suing them because they exceeded the reasonable amount of force and broke the bike.. that kind of crap.
Since this design is "mythical" at this point, we don't need to concern ourselves with that.

I'm not sure about making it part of the frame though.. at some point, I want my guards to bend or shere away from the hard important stuff like frame and engine cases.. but designing them into the bike from the off would be VERY important. Also building hand holds into the crash bars to aid righting the bike.

How cool would it be to go on a dealer test ride for this bike.. you show up to look at the bike.. the sales guy shows you the controls, turn signals, headlight.. heated grips.. then he pushes the bike on it's side in the parking lot... "See, the frame is set up so the bike never completely falls to the groud... you just grab it here... *umph*.. this little handle automatically locks the front brake while you lift.. and there you go... Have a nice test ride".

[KoolBreeze]

Originally Posted by PaleHearse

It's also important to remember that we're creating a tour bike, and for just about all, weight is sacraficed for larger engine displacement (to a point).

We're more focused on layout at this point then we are with details like exact size of the engine. HP can be gained in several ways.. but again, we can sort out that detail in the second half of this.

Please edit your existing post and adjust the layout to fit that of post #3 if you would. You have some great ideas.. if you lay them out more or less as structured, it will make your ideas easier to grasp.

Thanks...

some thoughts on the weight and power issue... v-twin's heavier than parallel twin. but many would still prefer the V regardless. HP and torque need to be matched to the platform since an AT is not a short distant racer of some sort and need be able to torque along with transcontinental load aboard for thousands of miles. I would sacrifice HP for broader torque band, increased reliablity and mpg for the same displacement. and in a similar sized/weight bike I still want more than 50hp as offered by say F650GSD. the DL650 puts out 66?hp which is less than similar engine with different cams n tune in sv650. the reason I mention this size is in my post I mentioned 650-800 displacement for the reason "my" perfect adv bike doesn't need 1L or more and the weight/mpg penalty that goes with it. that's also why I mentioned 420lb or less wet. basically if one could build something similar to a F650 Dakar with a more powerfull twin and upgraded design and keep the price not to much more than teh present F650... that would be the perfect one for me. incorporate some unique design elements such as Buells inframe fuel/oil management and change the way the BMW anti-lock brakes work.. yep, that might do it. still waiting to hear word on any prospective F800gs. lol I believe that has 85hp and gets 60mpg in the "s" version, perhaps they will retune it to 80hp and give me what I'm looking for. fat chance in hell, but there is always the dream.

[KoolBreeze]

Originally Posted by PaleHearse

Shortonskill touched on one point that I think has been reflected in several posts here in that the bikes crash protection system should be the FIRST frigging thing they design. To me, having it survive a slow speed horizontalization if more impotant then having an engine. Without either one.. your a pedestrian.
Now no amount of crash protection is going to completely protect the bike... so I suppose the reason they leave that to the aftermarket guys are legal ones rather then design oversight... someone suing them because they exceeded the reasonable amount of force and broke the bike.. that kind of crap.
Since this design is "mythical" at this point, we don't need to concern ourselves with that.

I'm not sure about making it part of the frame though.. at some point, I want my guards to bend or shere away from the hard important stuff like frame and engine cases.. but designing them into the bike from the off would be VERY important. Also building hand holds into the crash bars to aid righting the bike.

How cool would it be to go on a dealer test ride for this bike.. you show up to look at the bike.. the sales guy shows you the controls, turn signals, headlight.. heated grips.. then he pushes the bike on it's side in the parking lot... "See, the frame is set up so the bike never completely falls to the groud... you just grab it here... *umph*.. this little handle automatically locks the front brake while you lift.. and there you go... Have a nice test ride".

apparently the buells are pretty crash worthy, at least beyond what one would initially expect of them. that is a nice thing to find out actually. I agree though about the concern and liability issue.

also fully agree with the rest of your post. hand holds, out front brake lock up. lol. sup

[Grainbelt]

Put longer travel suspension and different tire choices on the Versys. Done.

[scooteraug02]

DieselMotorcycle

[scooteraug02]

Engine: Opposing twin diesel 160 or 180. 160 may allow room to locate some weight underneath for lower CG. Diesel would dictate fuel injection and water cooling. Through a turbo in for fun.

Diesel would give you fuel options (bio fuel) but need for more frequent oil changes, and better bigger filtering. The engine crank and cylinder etc will have to be heavy duty which adds weight.

Fuel and Cooling = injection and water.

If not Diesel: Same as above only gas with fuel injection. FI heavy duty low mtc low problems and High reliability. Sell HD aftermarket parts if need for around the world.

Fuel: Injection after market CV carbs available.

Cooling: Oil/Air

Driveline Shaft heavy duty and tough, maybe steel casing.

Suspension Airbag type system fully adjustable for the rear and paralever up front.

Electrics. Analog, modular, easy fix, big output

Fuel Capacity Whatever the limit is on IronButt 11.X gallons I think. Put it in more than one spot for ideal wt distribution if necessary. External fuel filter and pump.

Fluff. Build and sell a good solid base bike and make all the fluff availabe on the side. This would be like Harley Davidson options but not CHROME stuff, ADVENTURE stuff and not at aggravated rape prices.

Customer service: If it is done right it will take off lots will be sold profits will be made and miles will be put on. Dealer and mfgrs will participate in forums and correct problems and listen. Problems will be solved and more units sold.

[PaleHearse]

Originally Posted by Grainbelt

Put longer travel suspension and different tire choices on the Versys. Done.

Someone wasn't listening in class.



Just on a quick look... It's got no suspension, it's water cooled, it's got no crash system, it's a piece of ballistic tupperwear that I'd love to see the repair bill on when it tips over on the rocks... it's got cast wheels, no electric system.. crap dude.. do I need to go on? Where do you put the luggage? No fuel range.. weren't you listening?

Now.. play nice... edit your origional post and I'll happily nuke this one.

[scooteraug02]

Originally Posted by PaleHearse

Very cool.. give us all some further information about the engine... fuel economy, maintenance and such.. if you know it that is.

Do you know who made this bike so we can all do some independent research?
Diesel is usually more easy to come by in under developed countries... so it would be a cool fuel to use for an adventure bike.. but only if other issues didn't get in the way.. mostly weight, maintenance and cooling.

Click THIS Or this if you prefer

http://www.dieselmotorcycles.com/military.htm#bike1


Hayes Diversified Technologies (HDTUSA) has been a prime U.S. Defense Department supplier since 1961. We have been delivering Motorcycles, ATVs and Light Utility Vehicles to the U.S. Military since 1982.

The M1030M1 JP8/Diesel Military Motorcycle has been under development since 1998. It is designed to operate reliably and efficiently on Kerosene based fuels to include Diesel Fuel and Aviation Kerosene. HDT is under contract with the U.S. Marine Corps to delivery over 440 M1030M1s. Production will begin in March of 2006

[Kawidad]

Okay here goes:

Engine: Parallel twin with counter balancers and a displacement of about 700-850cc. (Either straight up and down, or slightly angled, ala Yamaha of the 80's) Automatic valve adjustment, ala H-D, or screw and nut arrangement w/. a 10,000 mile interval. HP depends on final weight, but probably around 65 minimum with a lot of torque. A lower compression ratio 10:1 +/- for the ability to burn crap fuel well. Air-oil cooled. 6 speed overdrive trannie with a cassette style arrangement for easy access. Plug and play CDI ignition. Carburation would be by way of a flat-sided CV with a pumper, but could be convinced with a well sorted FI system. Large capacity external alternator, ala BMW or Yamaha for lots of farkles.

The layout would strongly resemble the KTM 640 Adventure. Large fuel capacity, excellent ergos, and suspension. Of course, everything laid out so that it is easy access and/or easy to take apart and put back together.

HID low with a bright halogen high beam. LED tail/brake/turn lights.

I would prefer the BMW laced 19/17 combo from the standard GS. Less hardcore dirt worthy, but more trail/street oriented with better tire selection.

Steel frame with lower rails, supporting the engine (so it can be jacked up without difficulty). Bolt-on steel subframe for strength with luggage. Comes with side and center stands. Exhaust is routed upward and not under the bike. Modular seating, ala GS, with large rack that is moveable and removeable.

Overall weight should be within the the 300# range. Lower is always better, but must be realistic. I would prefer a shaft drive arrangement, but weight-wise, chain is more realistic.

[PaleHearse]

Originally Posted by ShortOnSkill

Would raising the cylinders have any effect on crashing?

I've always disliked the idea of having a cylinder head land on me. However, BMW's are low and would land on my boot. This is tolerable. I wouldn't want something heavy landing on longer bones or an unprotected knee.

Well.. for all the ugly involved, the ability of the engine to cool it's self and the low center of gravity on that layout is pretty cool. I'm thinking it could stand a couple degrees of lift, but not sure what that would do to the smoothness of the engine and overall torque. I know there are certain relationship angles on an engine that are easier to overcome then others. Guzzi's layout would be alaright for this too.. but one cool idea handed out previously would be to make an air cooled engine with watter or oil (or both) assisted cooling. This would make a bike that might have a modular system. If you can imagine.. a forced air assisted oil cooler that actually has quick disconnects if anything should happen to it.. you can just disconnect it and bypass it.. that way you could have a larger displacement engine and still use it on trails. Just a thought.. but again.. this is all thought at this point.

Also, the beast we're describing will take some getting used to. The crash bar system alone will make the bike look kind of strange and most would probably not understand what it was for... until the sales guy pushed it on it' side and said.. "Oh, and if you remove the crash system it voids the warentee..."

Having a crash bar land on your leg is going to br pretty much the same as having a cylinder head land there.. so best advice I suppose would be to get to know it.. own it. This bike is sure as hell not going to be for everyone... it would be a tough bike to understand at first.