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Old 02-21-2007, 10:54 AM   #151
Ian640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve gs
Ian;

What are your impressions of the Beta package?
I think we've already had this discussion on the HUBB http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-torque-22604)

Cheers,

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Old 02-21-2007, 12:42 PM   #152
dupreedh
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if this reply should be put somewhere else, please put me in the right direction...

i'm looking in to getting a dual sport, most likely of the smaller variety, as i don't have much off-road experience other than some occasional dirt bike thrashing and what not. i've looked at both the KLX250, and the XT225, both of which seem to be great bikes, i just want some opinions on either from owners or people who have ridden them.

any other smaller cc dual sport bike suggestions would be much appreciated
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:53 PM   #153
Klay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupreedh
if this reply should be put somewhere else, please put me in the right direction...

i'm looking in to getting a dual sport, most likely of the smaller variety, as i don't have much off-road experience other than some occasional dirt bike thrashing and what not. i've looked at both the KLX250, and the XT225, both of which seem to be great bikes, i just want some opinions on either from owners or people who have ridden them.

any other smaller cc dual sport bike suggestions would be much appreciated
It depends on what you are planning...if you are interested in riding fast offroad, the KLX250 would be better. If you just want to commute and wander around and explore, the XT225 would be better. It's cheaper and also much easier to tune up. A DR200 has the best range, but only a five speed transmission and is a little breathless at 60 mph.

I would think one of those little dual sports would be fantastic for you riding around the Asheville area. You lucky guy living in motorcycle paradise.

Looks like the BMWRA national rally will be at the Biltmore next summer...have fun talking to those folks.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:57 PM   #154
montesa_vr
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More on wide-ratio gearboxes

So far, here's what I have discovered on the spread of transmissions gears on the bikes that might be considered for minimalist touring. This is an important issue to me, because it's hard to enjoy an adventure if the engine is screaming on the highway in top gear or won't navigate a trail without brutalizing the clutch.

Don't assume that a 6-speed is automatically better than a 5-speed. It will make it easier to keep the engine spinning, but a lot of 6-speeds are not particularly wide ratio. The widest spread of transmission gears I've ever used was the 5-speed in my Honda TL250 Trials bike, which I geared so high that it would barely pull top gear on the highway and would still climb a tree in first.

Of the street-legal bikes currently available, the Yamaha XT225 is the champ, as mentioned in a different post, above. Next comes the Kawasaki Super Sherpa 250, sold from 2000 to 2003 in the U.S., but apparently still selling in Canada. After that comes the surprising Yamaha TW200 with its ultra wide ratio 5-speed, followed by the 6-speed Kawasaki KLX250S. By the way, the ratios of the KLX250S are almost identical to those of the long lived KLR250 that preceeded it.

If all these motorcycles were geared exactly alike to a deliver a Gold Wing-style overdrive top gear, here are resulting first gear ratios:
1975 Honda TL250 20.15
Yamaha XT225 19.74
Kawasaki Sherpa 18.30
Yamaha TW200 17.44
Kawasaki KLR/KLX250 16.72

I'll try to dig up some current Honda and Suzuki numbers.
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:15 PM   #155
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What about high gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by montesa_vr
So far, here's what I have discovered on the spread of transmissions gears on the bikes that might be considered for minimalist touring. This is an important issue to me, because it's hard to enjoy an adventure if the engine is screaming on the highway in top gear or won't navigate a trail without brutalizing the clutch.

Don't assume that a 6-speed is automatically better than a 5-speed. It will make it easier to keep the engine spinning, but a lot of 6-speeds are not particularly wide ratio. The widest spread of transmission gears I've ever used was the 5-speed in my Honda TL250 Trials bike, which I geared so high that it would barely pull top gear on the highway and would still climb a tree in first.

Of the street-legal bikes currently available, the Yamaha XT225 is the champ, as mentioned in a different post, above. Next comes the Kawasaki Super Sherpa 250, sold from 2000 to 2003 in the U.S., but apparently still selling in Canada. After that comes the surprising Yamaha TW200 with its ultra wide ratio 5-speed, followed by the 6-speed Kawasaki KLX250S. By the way, the ratios of the KLX250S are almost identical to those of the long lived KLR250 that preceeded it.

If all these motorcycles were geared exactly alike to a deliver a Gold Wing-style overdrive top gear, here are resulting first gear ratios:
1975 Honda TL250 20.15
Yamaha XT225 19.74
Kawasaki Sherpa 18.30
Yamaha TW200 17.44
Kawasaki KLR/KLX250 16.72

I'll try to dig up some current Honda and Suzuki numbers.
That's interesting, do you have the figures for 5th or 6th gear for these bikes?
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:36 PM   #156
ChopperCharles
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TW200 adventure



How about this for a 200cc adventure bike?

Charles.
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Old 02-21-2007, 02:50 PM   #157
montesa_vr
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High gear

John, the first gear numbers I posted were all assuming the final drive had been adjusted to make top gear equal at about 5.04. Are you asking me for the stock, as-delivered top gear ratios of these motorcycles?
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:40 PM   #158
montesa_vr
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Showroom stock high and low gear ratios

Highest top gear, stock:
Kawasaki Super Sherpa 250 6th 7.33
Kawasaki KLX250 6th 7.60
Kawasaki KLR250 6th 7.73
Yamaha XT225 6th 7.89
Yamaha TW200 5th 9.73
Honda TL250 5th 9.95

Lowest low gear, stock:
Honda TL250 39.82
Yamaha TW200 33.58
Yamaha XT225 30.77
Kawasaki Super Sherpa 250 26.58
Kawasaki KLR250 25.63
Kawasaki KLX250 25.20
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Old 02-21-2007, 03:59 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klay
It depends on what you are planning...if you are interested in riding fast offroad, the KLX250 would be better. If you just want to commute and wander around and explore, the XT225 would be better. It's cheaper and also much easier to tune up. A DR200 has the best range, but only a five speed transmission and is a little breathless at 60 mph.

I would think one of those little dual sports would be fantastic for you riding around the Asheville area. You lucky guy living in motorcycle paradise.

Looks like the BMWRA national rally will be at the Biltmore next summer...have fun talking to those folks.
yea, i'm definitely lucky in that i learned to ride in the asheville area. as far as the smaller d/s goes, i'm looking to sell my old 82 nighthawk 450 and get a used d/s...a trade if possible...i have a ducati monster as well, which i absolutley love...if you're ever in the area, let me know, i can show you a few roads...

is the KLX a decent touring bike?? i'm definitely inclined to ride fast off-road, but i'd like to have a capable tourer as well
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Old 02-21-2007, 04:12 PM   #160
Klay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupreedh
yea, i'm definitely lucky in that i learned to ride in the asheville area. as far as the smaller d/s goes, i'm looking to sell my old 82 nighthawk 450 and get a used d/s...a trade if possible...i have a ducati monster as well, which i absolutley love...if you're ever in the area, let me know, i can show you a few roads...

is the KLX a decent touring bike?? i'm definitely inclined to ride fast off-road, but i'd like to have a capable tourer as well
I've never ridden the KLX250, just sat on it and studied the specs. My personal belief is that you can tour on almost anything, and the smaller it is, the easier it is to handle. I'm sure you could hop on the KLX and do 200-300 miles days easy enough, as long as you stop to stretch and stand up on the pegs once in a while to keep your butt from getting too sore with the narrow seat. I think it'll handle 60 mph road speeds better than my DR200. If you want to go on longer and faster trips, the Monster with soft luggage looks ideal to me. I hate windshields, though, so you have to take what I say with a grain of salt.

I'd love advice on the roads in western NC. I've done the famous ones, I want to ride the better more obscure ones. Oh man, those roads...

Klay screwed with this post 02-21-2007 at 04:17 PM
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Old 02-21-2007, 04:33 PM   #161
steve gs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montesa_vr
So far, here's what I have discovered on the spread of transmissions gears on the bikes that might be considered for minimalist touring. This is an important issue to me, because it's hard to enjoy an adventure if the engine is screaming on the highway in top gear or won't navigate a trail without brutalizing the clutch.

Don't assume that a 6-speed is automatically better than a 5-speed. It will make it easier to keep the engine spinning, but a lot of 6-speeds are not particularly wide ratio. The widest spread of transmission gears I've ever used was the 5-speed in my Honda TL250 Trials bike, which I geared so high that it would barely pull top gear on the highway and would still climb a tree in first.
We all have the same objectives here (maximizing the potential of our MT rigs) and I agree on the wide vs close ratio considerations BUT another important thing to consider is where the engine makes it's power and how broad that powerband is.

I've taken a look at the numbers on my DR200SE and DR350SE and though the 200 benefits from a shorter 1st gear (as one would expect on a smaller engine [3.0:1 (200) vs 2.5:1 (350)]) the real world seat of your pants reality is that the 350 (with its 6spd) hits 6th at about 50-55 and the 200 (with it's 5spd) is long since spent. Both of these engines have about the same bore/stroke and primary reduction ratios as well as fairly close trans ratios other than 1st and the 200's lack of a 6th. The 200 likes to cruise at 4500-4800 whereas the 350 likes 4800 in 5th and 5000 in 6th (that wind thing).



The bottom line to all this is to test all you can and you may go through a few bikes and setups before you find that right one. Never met a rider who didn't like to buy bikes.



An optimum setup for a long trip would be to carry a spare countershaft sprocket in a size that will expand you flexibility. Some are so stupid easy to change with a snap ring pliers or a retaining ring held by 2 screws why not. A big one for the flats and a smaller one for the mountains; just size your chain so you can alternate with a slight chain adjustment. I do this all the time when I run my Aprilia RS50 (talk about narrow powerbands) in various part of the country.



Ian;

Didn't know that was you, you're right. Have you done any trips since August.


Charles;

For the benefit of the other TW riders here, show us a pic of your pannier rack design.



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Old 02-21-2007, 05:52 PM   #162
CaveDave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dupreedh
yea, i'm definitely lucky in that i learned to ride in the asheville area. as far as the smaller d/s goes, i'm looking to sell my old 82 nighthawk 450 and get a used d/s...a trade if possible...i have a ducati monster as well, which i absolutley love...if you're ever in the area, let me know, i can show you a few roads...

is the KLX a decent touring bike?? i'm definitely inclined to ride fast off-road, but i'd like to have a capable tourer as well
I can't speak for the KLX, but it's predecessor, the KLR 250 is a great mini-tourer, and I (for one), am sorry to see it go. I went one tooth higher (15t) on the front, and it runs 65 at a comfortable pace, 6800 rpm (remember redline is 9500). 300 mile days are no problem, although I do throw a piece of egg-case style foam over the seat, from a wally-mart ground pad.
I threw a homemade rack (you'll need a buddy with a welder), saddlebags, and a homemade front fender stabilizer on mine. I promise to post pictures of these, I just have to figure out what my kids did with the damn camera!!
I've got no problem riding off-road with mine, but bear in mine that I'm too beat up for a bunch of high-speed singletrack. It's great fun on gravel, dirt, and woods exploring. Fun on the twisties, fun in the dirt, what more could you want?
It also has screw-locknut valve adjustment for easy maintenance.
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Old 02-22-2007, 05:45 AM   #163
Zapp22
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did both the 350 and the 350SE have 6-speed trannies?

And, isn't the DRZ400S just an improvement on the 350? [except for no six-speed option]


Quote:
Originally Posted by steve gs
We all have the same objectives here (maximizing the potential of our MT rigs) and I agree on the wide vs close ratio considerations BUT another important thing to consider is where the engine makes it's power and how broad that powerband is.

I've taken a look at the numbers on my DR200SE and DR350SE and though the 200 benefits from a shorter 1st gear (as one would expect on a smaller engine [3.0:1 (200) vs 2.5:1 (350)]) the real world seat of your pants reality is that the 350 (with its 6spd) hits 6th at about 50-55 and the 200 (with it's 5spd) is long since spent. Both of these engines have about the same bore/stroke and primary reduction ratios as well as fairly close trans ratios other than 1st and the 200's lack of a 6th. The 200 likes to cruise at 4500-4800 whereas the 350 likes 4800 in 5th and 5000 in 6th (that wind thing).



The bottom line to all this is to test all you can and you may go through a few bikes and setups before you find that right one. Never met a rider who didn't like to buy bikes.



An optimum setup for a long trip would be to carry a spare countershaft sprocket in a size that will expand you flexibility. Some are so stupid easy to change with a snap ring pliers or a retaining ring held by 2 screws why not. A big one for the flats and a smaller one for the mountains; just size your chain so you can alternate with a slight chain adjustment. I do this all the time when I run my Aprilia RS50 (talk about narrow powerbands) in various part of the country.



Ian;

Didn't know that was you, you're right. Have you done any trips since August.


Charles;

For the benefit of the other TW riders here, show us a pic of your pannier rack design.



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Old 02-22-2007, 07:40 AM   #164
steve gs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapp22
did both the 350 and the 350SE have 6-speed trannies?

And, isn't the DRZ400S just an improvement on the 350? [except for no six-speed option]
Yes, with the same ratios.

Many like the DRZ400S but I'll pass and keep my 350. It would even have been an improvement to have a 6th in the F650GSD being that it is more of street bike than a woods blaster.

In my view, because MT'ing requires lengthy periods of operation (the smaller the bike, the longer) to ensure long engine life, reliability, and economy we need maximum flexibility from the trans so we can dial our smaller engines in to the conditions presented. For some bikes the math works out for others it is difficult.


I generally like to cruise in the mid-forty's (if I don't have to manage traffic or race the clock), with my 200 there is nothing left except higher rpm but the 350 still has another gear. To me, that's the advantage of that extra gear, if I need to kick it up a bit I can. Look at automotive transmissions now; gone are the 2 and 3 spd boxes and we are now seeing 4, 5, 6, and 7; there is a reason (smaller engines, engines with narrow powerbands, and more economy at higher "cruise" speeds).



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Old 02-22-2007, 07:43 AM   #165
Burtonridr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperCharles


How about this for a 200cc adventure bike?

Charles.
I just love this bike
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