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Old 02-16-2007, 10:07 PM   #16
ekaphoto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FT BSTRD
Huh? Aren't GMs and Fords manufactured with UAW labor here?

Why are they lower priced than their import brethren?

Could it be that there are more produced.....here?
Not anymore. Most "US" cars are actually asembled out of the country now. Mexico is a favorite for ford.Even if it says assembled in the USA that is only part true. They assemble it just enough here so it can say it is, but is mostly assembled out of the country by cheap labor. Oddly enough due to the import stigma of years ago Nissan and Toyota's are assembled in the US now.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:26 PM   #17
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Somebody go get the head poppin tool!
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe S.
Having owned a R1150GS, 650 Strom and my current Tiger I can say all are good machines. IMHO, the Suzuki has the lowest quality fit and finish, lacked in detailing, but was quite reliable. I felt that BMW had the best fit and finish and was certainly the most fully refined and developed package although my particular bike gave some trouble (much of it related to dealer issues IMO). The Tiger is somewhere in the middle on finish and has so far been stone reliable and the most fun to ride of any of them (subjective of course). Its fairly well developed as a package but shows a lack of detailing (for example, why three locks for each saddlebag, not keyed to the ignition key)
I
Which is the point really. Fit & finish you can see when you buy the bike you can make an informed choice there before you pay over the $$$.

Hand grenade transmissions on the other hand - well, you not only can't see the problem in advance, but it's also quite likely to happen somewhere that'll really annoy you.

I'd guess that's why BMW has such bad ratings, the finish may be excellent, but the annoyance of things failing after you've paid for the bike is a lot greater than an ugly looking Strom - which you could see when you made the decision.

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Old 02-16-2007, 11:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterW
Which is the point really. Fit & finish you can see when you buy the bike you can make an informed choice there before you pay over the $$$.

Hand grenade transmissions on the other hand - well, you not only can't see the problem in advance, but it's also quite likely to happen somewhere that'll really annoy you.

I'd guess that's why BMW has such bad ratings, the finish may be excellent, but the annoyance of things failing after you've paid for the bike is a lot greater than an ugly looking Strom - which you could see when you made the decision.

Cheers
Pete
What you propose may be the reason but it is equally possible that there are other factors at play such as higher expectations on the premium bikes. I would also propose that fit and finish is a significant part of the quality equation, not as important as a major failure to be sure, but a factor.
Also you have to wonder about things like cost of ownership. They rate Victory very highly. I really have to question this as I know in our area they have poor resale value which is certainly a factor in cost of ownership to me. It could be a regional thing or a quirk in how they rate cost of ownership.
In any case I would have liked to have seen a much more detailed breakdown of the owners, models rated, what areas the problems were (engine, electrical, fuel system etc.). That could actually be useful information for a consmer, this survey simply doesn't give enough detail to tell a person much.
Lest anyone wonder, I'm not anti Suzuki or anything. I still have an SV1000 and an LTZ400 quad. I've probably owned more Suzuki products than any other single brand in 38 years of riding.
They (Suzuki) often come up with some of the most interesting Japanese bikes. I think of them as being very good at finding and initially exploiting a niche market (such as middle weight dual sport, liter class V-twin, inexpensive middle-weight adventure tourer ) but I inevitably have to shake my head that they never seem to take them to the next level and fully develop the package. For example, were they to have taken the Strom to the next level with purpose designed luggage and accessories, instead of the tacked on stuff they offer like the heated grips and bags. Similarly, they could easily have developed the SV1000 into a bike that would go head on with the likes of the Ducati ST3 and have a really world class sport tourer because the SV1000 drivetrain is quite excellent, they just won't do it, no doubt for fear the market wouldn't be there.
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Old 02-16-2007, 11:54 PM   #20
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Yabbut only the whiners and complainers actually take part in those surveys. The happy owners don't bother and the unhappy post their continual toxicity on websites. Just an observation.
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:47 AM   #21
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germans are good at outsourcing and over enginering. that leads to reliability problems. german labor rates are also very high. read the bmw forum or other boards and it's story book expensive problems. i use to own an RT...never again!
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:52 AM   #22
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Wink JD Power and company...

How long did this "survey" cover? First year?

I no longer subscribe to MCN.
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Old 02-17-2007, 12:53 AM   #23
eakins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamos2000
I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.. now that I have that out of the way, I thought I heard/read that BMWs across the ocean from us in America are more reasonably priced and they are just more expensive here in the USA cause we buy into the whole 'BMW' thing (i.e. thinking its a Honda)
yes but out of the big 4 jap mfg. honda is almost always priced the most expensive. i believe their engineering finese & reliability does justify the premium price.
problem is bmw is even more $ yet less reliable. oh gee sign me up.

too bad no one in honda has the balls to design and bring a kick-ass adventure tourer to the US. a modernized africa twin would rule.
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:34 AM   #24
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More data

In the quality rating category:

Suzuki and Honda both received the highest rating of 5.

BMW & Victory were rated at 4.

Ducati, Kawasak, Triumph, and Yamaha were rated at 3.

Buell and Harley-Davidson were rated at 2.


A key finding of the study was that 41% of the problems reported were engine-related.
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Old 02-17-2007, 05:39 AM   #25
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Who is this "J.D." guy...... and does he ride motorcycles?





Honestly, I can't imagine how anything they printed would change my opinions one way OR the other about motorcycles from what I've learned by first hand experience and witnessing over years of riding.


As far as the BMW vs Suzuki thing, c'mon guys ride what makes you happy an none of that will matter. I haven't owned a BMW for over 10 years, but if they make the 800GS to my idea of right I'll be standing in line for one.


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Old 02-17-2007, 06:11 AM   #26
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This is an interesting topic. Comparing an entry-level bike (Suzuki) to a bike used mainly by more advanced riders / owners is not the best way to introduce motorcycling to the new person.

Japan produces some excellent high-end bikes; Gold Wing comes to mind. The vast majority of machines offered by the Big Four are entry-level. You have to remember that their market is global; the US and Europe are really the only countries with roads good enough to handle heavy, powerful machines. Most of the world has less than perfect travel lanes; allot of you forumers know this. Japan caters to this market, as many more machines can be sold at a lower price, producing a higher profit. Not per piece, but in volume.

The larger machines, country-marketed, are higher priced to pay for the engineering, and the fact that fewer (numerically) are produced.

BMW, as with H-D (not that they're in the same class...) produce machines for a more specialized market. Some folks DO take the 12GS and the big Buell off-road, but the vast majority of these machines seldom see more than a muddy road. Not a slight by any means, just a fact.

I would offer that most buyers of BMW's and H-D's would probably be a bit more particular, and therefore critical, of their chosen mount. The typical buyer of the Japanese bike *would* be less so. Not to say that they are less caring or understanding of their machine, just less involved I guess.

I've ridden Japanese machines most of my adult life, with nary a problem. I've had some issues, but nothing that would cause me to shun a brand forever. A model perhaps, but not a brand. I've owned one H-D, and though I would never own another as primary transport, I am considering a second as a "back-up" or play bike. I would purchase a BMW, but at this time the $$ is a hinderance. Yes, they have some issues; nothing that can't be rectified by a decent shop. And their sales group really does stand head & shoulders above the crowd. But I'm not buying the salesperson; I'm buying the bike, and the shop to help me when things go wrong.

I follow this same thought when buying all my bikes; so far, so good. I suppose what I'm trying to say that is all bikes, regardless of the coutry of origin, have their pluses and minuses; research, use your head more than your heart, and be happy with your choice. It's not the biggest decision you'll ever have to make, but it does have an impact on your day-to-day smile qoutient.
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Old 02-17-2007, 06:47 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe S.
I read this too and I think its an interesting survey.
I often wonder about the methods used to conduct these types of things.
. . .
In the auto business, the dealer is rated by the factory on their survey results and rewarded for high numbers. That reward is usually either cash back or more inventory of a hard to get model. Factories want the highest overall number in order to advertise that accomplishment. So, when you buy your new car, the salesman will 'help' you fill out the form. Sometimes they will call after a few weeks to let you know the survey is coming in the mail, and to obtain assurances that if you cannot give them a perfect score in every category to let them know what they can do to fix it. Even other dealers will bring you back in for a free oil change, wash job and full tank of gas if you sign the survey for them.
Surveys are things I take with a grain of salt, especially if there is no explanation of the questions, methods and database size. After all, a survey has shown me to be the most handsome man living in my house.
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:20 AM   #28
ddlewis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandRover
This is an interesting topic. Comparing an entry-level bike (Suzuki) to a bike used mainly by more advanced riders / owners...
typical..


(edit: checked your profile expecting a stable full of BMW's only to find a metric cruiser and Suzuki.. so maybe not so typical. I still think the entry-level / advanced riders comment is silly. )

ddlewis screwed with this post 02-17-2007 at 07:25 AM
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:25 AM   #29
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Victory rated #4 Who did the actual poll Pularis?
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Old 02-17-2007, 07:51 AM   #30
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It's funny I bought my V-strom because of dealer network, but with the built in realibity I don't need no stinking dealers.
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