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Old 02-03-2014, 03:03 AM   #13741
B1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racca View Post
In the end who cares, it's just a DR.
just a DR? JUST a DR???!!! surely you jest, we all know it's a KTM killer.

good point on the validity of the butt dyno. in a perfect world we would have a swag of canvet DR and a motolab-prepped DRs (n=20?) to subject to the machines and ride as well. qualitative and quantitative studies published in peer-reviewed journals etc.....
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:04 AM   #13742
dobbo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Please measure the depth of the depressions concentric to the bore in the bottom corners of the face of the slide guide and report back.

Regards,

Derek
Will do next time l feel the need to strip down the carby.

I would expect wear on a stock standard slide also, after 50,000km; the point l am making is the mod l made to the slide has provided me with a lot more satisfying throttle response. I am not to worried that when my bike has 80K on the clock, my slide will be a little more worn (l'd expect it, it is made from plastic), l am sure other parts of my bike will be fuggered as well.
Most DR riders will sell their Dr's prior to reaching 50,000+kms, so drilling the slide is inconsequential regarding wear.

I have made many mods/adaptation to my DR650, and have a bike that suits my riding style which hasn't cost me a pile of cash.
I am sure a text book would say l have done this wrong or should have done it some other way; however, through trial & error as a practical rider, most what l have done to my bike is great for me.
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:49 AM   #13743
0405canvet
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Hey Barry! Can you move the Dyno charts over to this thread please? Thank you! Great to hear your bike is still running good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B1 View Post
just a DR? JUST a DR???!!! surely you jest, we all know it's a KTM killer.

good point on the validity of the butt dyno. in a perfect world we would have a swag of canvet DR and a motolab-prepped DRs (n=20?) to subject to the machines and ride as well. qualitative and quantitative studies published in peer-reviewed journals etc.....
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:17 AM   #13744
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racca View Post
When I fitted the pumper carb to the DR I took it to a reputable , well known shop to tune it. They dyno tuned it and gave me a nice laminated piece of paper with a pretty graph showing a nice even curve with fair power increases. I rode out and immediately didn't like it.
What dynamometer did said shop use? Did said shop provide graphs for wide, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 openings, along with CO%, NOx ppm, O2%, HC ppm and CO2% data for each rpm step?

Regards,

Derek

motolab screwed with this post 02-03-2014 at 10:28 AM Reason: Throttle positions edited for appropriateness to slide (rather than CV) carburetor.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:41 AM   #13745
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Willy View Post
Pardon me if I've missed it but Motolab, have you tried Gordon's mods on a DR on your dyno? Back to back tests with your own mods would be very interesting
I did have a DR650 that came in with a drilled slide and DJ needle installed. It did not have a clipped spring. See http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...4#post22902704. A stock needle with added taper ground into it will behave similarly to a DJ needle (it also has quite a bit more taper and a smaller tip diameter than a stock needle).

Regards,

Derek
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:23 PM   #13746
B1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0405canvet View Post
Hey Barry! Can you move the Dyno charts over to this thread please? Thank you! Great to hear your bike is still running good.
i'll put the link here since it's from the vendor's thread, just in case that's an issue...

i heard on the grapevine these dyno runs took into account the coriolis effect in the southern hemisphere, the previously mentioned inverted air molecules down under, and the small but significant difference made by the dyno results run at 35m above sea level so consequently weren't as far down the gravity well of earth and thus not as subject to the warping of the space/time continuum according to einstein's theory of relativity. does anyone want to go for a ride instead of debating this stuff?
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:48 PM   #13747
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobbo View Post
Will do next time l feel the need to strip down the carby.
www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=298, http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=300, http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=299 and http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=301 may be helpful.
Quote:
I would expect wear on a stock standard slide also, after 50,000km;
Slide guide wear will be approximately halved by not increasing the lift hole area.
Quote:
the point l am making is the mod l made to the slide has provided me with a lot more satisfying throttle response.
As would simply jetting properly.
Quote:
I am not to worried that when my bike has 80K on the clock, my slide will be a little more worn (l'd expect it, it is made from plastic), l am sure other parts of my bike will be fuggered as well.
I agree that slide wear is probably not as important as slide guide wear because it happens more slowly than slide guide wear and it's predominantly slide guide wear that in turn accelerates emulsion tube wear (causing the lower rpm richness problems associated with it). That said, a carburetor with 50,000 km of use with a drilled slide will definitely have a worn out slide guide, emulsion tube, slide, and perhaps jet needle (unless some of these parts were replaced part way through).
Quote:
Most DR riders will sell their Dr's prior to reaching 50,000+kms, so drilling the slide is inconsequential regarding wear.
There are many who own their bikes for far more kms than that, and some who use their DRs for serious adventure riding, where they will be exceeding 50,000 km while in situations where extremes of altitude may be encountered (and therefore rich mixtures will be a problem), reliability is of utmost importance, parts are not readily available, and it is therefore important to get the most life out of parts.
Quote:
I have made many mods/adaptation to my DR650, and have a bike that suits my riding style which hasn't cost me a pile of cash.
Aside from tuning on a dynamometer, I've not advocated anything that costs a pile of cash. However, if one is willing to be rigorous, there are methods that anyone can employ that do not require a dynamometer and will yield adequate results:

Put some tape on the throttle housing and the edge of the grip. Mark zero throttle with a sharpie. This is best done with the engine idling, so you can tell when the slack in the cable has just been taken up. Turn off the engine and mark wide open. Now take a tape measure (metric works best in my opinion) and measure the length of the arc. Put a mark at the mid point. Duplicate this procedure to mark the mid-point between here and zero throttle opening to get 1/4 open. Repeat for 1/8 and 1/16 openings. Don't have an accident trying to look at the marks while riding. If you do, I'm not responsible!

Set the float height, then tune from the top down, i.e. get the right main jet in it for proper wide open throttle operation, then set the needle clip position for correct operation at 1/4 opening, then install the correct pilot jet for proper operation at 1/16-1/8 opening. Readjust the idle mixture after every jetting change. Without the ability to dyno with 5-gas analysis, I would go progressively leaner until there was just the very beginning of a discernible misbehavior. On the main jet, I would then go 2-3 sizes richer. On the needle clip, I would then adjust 1-2 positions richer. On the pilot jet, I would install 1-2 sizes larger. Please do bear in mind that if you have high compression, poor exhaust flow, low octane fuel, and/or ignition timing that is either correct or overadvanced for the correct mixture, tuning via this method could cause detonation and therefore engine damage (you can't really tune from the rich side because a rich misbehavior is really far away from the optimum mixture as well as being less uniformly far away for all combinations of throttle position and rpm). Because of the need to find the very edge of lean misbehavior, I would want to have main jets on hand in increments of 2.5.

The fuel screw adjustment procedure I recommend when gas analysis is not available:

Adjust fuel screw to 2- turns out from lightly seated. Start the engine, let it warm up and ride the bike around until it's hot. Using the idle speed screw, lower the idle speed below the factory spec. Adjust the fuel screw so that the strongest idle is achieved. You will notice there is a threshold where it becomes rich enough (enough turns out) to run strongest, beyond which no change is noticed. Adjust the idle mixture screw ~1/8-1/4 turn out from this threshold. Adjust the idle speed back to 1350 rpm.

Although having to open the fuel screw more than ~4.5 turns in the above procedure should still be noted as a clue that the pilot jet might be too small, whether or not the pilot jet is the correct size should be determined solely by how the engine runs in the 1/16 to 1/8 opening range.

If I was setting the bike up for economy or knew it would see much higher altitudes at times, I would not add the ~1/8-1/4 turn out from the threshold. The tradeoff is a longer warmup time before the engine idles cleanly without enrichment. In order not to have to worry about any tradeoff, you can install an extended fuel screw, which makes it easy to set the mixture as the altitude changes.

An opened up airbox with the correct main jet installed for high rpm WOT operation will tend to be rich during low to lower mid rpm operation for all/most openings. Using a float height setting tool, lowering the fuel level by raising the float height helps to compensate for this.

Correspondences on CV carbs:

Low rpm all throttle positions: float height, needle base diameter, emulsion tube outlet size
WOT operation overall: main jet
WOT operation between HP peak and red line: main air corrector
WOT operation below red line: jet needle shape
1/4 throttle opening: jet needle clip position
1/8 throttle opening: pilot jet size
1/16 throttle opening: pilot jet size
idle: fuel screw adjustment

Regards,

Derek
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:03 PM   #13748
0405canvet
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Joined: Apr 2012
Location: brisbanish
Oddometer: 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=298, http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=300, http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=299 and http://www.moto-lab.com/gallery/view?itemid=301 may be helpful.Slide guide wear will be approximately halved by not increasing the lift hole area.As would simply jetting properly.I agree that slide wear is probably not as important as slide guide wear because it happens more slowly than slide guide wear and it's predominantly slide guide wear that in turn accelerates emulsion tube wear (causing the lower rpm richness problems associated with it). That said, a carburetor with 50,000 km of use with a drilled slide will definitely have a worn out slide guide, emulsion tube, slide, and perhaps jet needle (unless some of these parts were replaced part way through).There are many who own their bikes for far more kms than that, and some who use their DRs for serious adventure riding, where they will be exceeding 50,000 km while in situations where extremes of altitude may be encountered (and therefore rich mixtures will be a problem), reliability is of utmost importance, parts are not readily available, and it is therefore important to get the most life out of parts.Aside from tuning on a dynamometer, I've not advocated anything that costs a pile of cash. However, if one is willing to be rigorous, there are methods that anyone can employ that do not require a dynamometer and will yield adequate results:

Put some tape on the throttle housing and the edge of the grip. Mark zero throttle with a sharpie. This is best done with the engine idling, so you can tell when the slack in the cable has just been taken up. Turn off the engine and mark wide open. Now take a tape measure (metric works best in my opinion) and measure the length of the arc. Put a mark at the mid point. Duplicate this procedure to mark the mid-point between here and zero throttle opening to get 1/4 open. Repeat for 1/8 and 1/16 openings. Don't have an accident trying to look at the marks while riding. If you do, I'm not responsible!

Set the float height, then tune from the top down, i.e. get the right main jet in it for proper wide open throttle operation, then set the needle clip position for correct operation at 1/4 opening, then install the correct pilot jet for proper operation at 1/16-1/8 opening. Readjust the idle mixture after every jetting change. Without the ability to dyno with 5-gas analysis, I would go progressively leaner until there was just the very beginning of a discernible misbehavior. On the main jet, I would then go 2-3 sizes richer. On the needle clip, I would then adjust 1-2 positions richer. On the pilot jet, I would install 1-2 sizes larger. Please do bear in mind that if you have high compression, poor exhaust flow, low octane fuel, and/or ignition timing that is either correct or overadvanced for the correct mixture, tuning via this method could cause detonation and therefore engine damage (you can't really tune from the rich side because a rich misbehavior is really far away from the optimum mixture as well as being less uniformly far away for all combinations of throttle position and rpm). Because of the need to find the very edge of lean misbehavior, I would want to have main jets on hand in increments of 2.5.

The fuel screw adjustment procedure I recommend when gas analysis is not available:

Adjust fuel screw to 2- turns out from lightly seated. Start the engine, let it warm up and ride the bike around until it's hot. Using the idle speed screw, lower the idle speed below the factory spec. Adjust the fuel screw so that the strongest idle is achieved. You will notice there is a threshold where it becomes rich enough (enough turns out) to run strongest, beyond which no change is noticed. Adjust the idle mixture screw ~1/8-1/4 turn out from this threshold. Adjust the idle speed back to 1350 rpm.

Although having to open the fuel screw more than ~4.5 turns in the above procedure should still be noted as a clue that the pilot jet might be too small, whether or not the pilot jet is the correct size should be determined solely by how the engine runs in the 1/16 to 1/8 opening range.

If I was setting the bike up for economy or knew it would see much higher altitudes at times, I would not add the ~1/8-1/4 turn out from the threshold. The tradeoff is a longer warmup time before the engine idles cleanly without enrichment. In order not to have to worry about any tradeoff, you can install an extended fuel screw, which makes it easy to set the mixture as the altitude changes.

An opened up airbox with the correct main jet installed for high rpm WOT operation will tend to be rich during low to lower mid rpm operation for all/most openings. Using a float height setting tool, lowering the fuel level by raising the float height helps to compensate for this.

Correspondences on CV carbs:

Low rpm all throttle positions: float height, needle base diameter, emulsion tube outlet size
WOT operation overall: main jet
WOT operation between HP peak and red line: main air corrector
WOT operation below red line: jet needle shape
1/4 throttle opening: jet needle clip position
1/8 throttle opening: pilot jet size
1/16 throttle opening: pilot jet size
idle: fuel screw adjustment

Regards,

Derek
Wonderful information! Or you can bring the bike to me. I will drill your slide, 2-3mm holes, cut your spring to 100mm, put in a 150 main, drill 2" hole in airbox, remove snorkel, taper stock needle, "D" the spacer and grind your header and you ride away happy. Or do it your self for $10, Australian price for jet. Don't worry about all the other shit and just ride!
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:07 PM   #13749
0405canvet
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Forgot to add the foam for the vacuum breather to stop slide guide wear, and removing the top chain guide. Also tapered stock needle works better than the DJ needle. Happy trails!
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:13 PM   #13750
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0405canvet View Post
Also tapered stock needle works better than the DJ needle.
Does the modified stock needle have more or less taper than the DJ?

Regards,

Derek
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:35 PM   #13751
NZSHAKER
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On breaking news

I crashed again on the weekend...picked up the bike started her up and away I went again.

Its the 5th time ive riden this road and the first time I ran out o talent on this corner...silly really but fuck it had a great weekend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6o...re=c4-overview
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:43 PM   #13752
0405canvet
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Full length needle with just bottom 20mm tapered. Leave the needle in the third clip, (stock position on USA model?) "D" the spacer will drop needle about two clip positions. The taper allows fuel into the needle jet correcting the off idle stumble and the lowering of the needle leans the rest of the range, in my opinion, also giving much better fuel mileage. Temp. under 20c will need richer settings!! The stock 140 main seemed to handle an extra 1 1/2" hole in airbox but may have been slightly lean at full throttle. If your at full throttle you should have shifted already! Works for me.
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Old 02-03-2014, 01:47 PM   #13753
Portly
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Just checked in after a couple of busy days and I see the flack has been flying.
All I can say is milage is better and the bike works a lot better at all revs and the exhaust is cleaner.
I would be willing to bet a Dyno would read all good.
When I started Gordons mods I intended to have a dyno run, but it is so much better I will not waste my money.
Honestly I was starting to get a bit bored with the DR and was contemplating a Terra for a while, But with the mods it is like having a new gutsier bike.
As Gordon said, it is all about getting the balance right.
I believe cutting the air box too much could be causing the problems others have had.
One local bought a kit and cut the top out of his airbox then had it Dynoed and they could not get it right, the best they could do had a mid range lean spot so they upped the pilot mixture to try and compensate. The result is a rich bottom good mid and rich top. He spent over $300 and got nowhere near the results I have for a $10 jet and a bit of work.
If I have to buy carb parts in another 20 or 30000 km so be it and the better fuel mileage will cover the cost.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:14 PM   #13754
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I did the maths, by gaining 2.5 km/l (from 19 up to 21.5) over 20000 km there will be a saving of $192 based on $1.60/l. I think that should cover the cost of any worn parts and the ride puts a big grin on my dial.
I was getting between 17 and 20 before the mods depending on speed, load, wind etc.
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Old 02-03-2014, 10:11 PM   #13755
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portly View Post
I did the maths, by gaining 2.5 km/l (from 19 up to 21.5) over 20000 km there will be a saving of $192 based on $1.60/l. I think that should cover the cost of any worn parts and the ride puts a big grin on my dial.
I was getting between 17 and 20 before the mods depending on speed, load, wind etc.
According to reports on the DR650 thread and elsewhere on ADV, 21.5 km/l for a DR650 isn't really all that impressive. It's certainly achievable without changes to the carburetor that promote wear.

Regards,

Derek
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