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Old 12-13-2012, 10:10 AM   #3196
LexLeroy
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Originally Posted by Benesesso View Post
When you buy 4130 steel, especially tubing, it is usually in the "annealed" condition. It is relatively soft and weak, but stronger than most common tubing made from plain carbon steels. Both of them will have a microstructure known as pearlite, as will the usual weld deposit from E70S2.

Pearlite is a very forgiving structure, meaning the steel can be bent quite a bit w/o cracking--usually. But if we take a piece of pearlitic steel and heat it above ~1350F, it transforms into something that is not pearlite--it's austenite. Aust. is completely different, but we can ignore that here, because what's important is what happens during cooling down to room temp.

Pearlite likes to reform at temps. between ~1100-1250F--dull red hot. It takes a bit of time to reform, depending on what steel is involved. It forms very fast in plain carbon steels (mild steel), in just a few seconds. But when we add elements such as Cr and Mo (what's in 4130), the time to change into pearlite can be much longer-can be ~10 sec. to a full minute or so.

The speed of transformation is what determines how a steel must be allowed to cool after welding. It's easy with mild steel-just let it air cool naturally. But with 4130 there can be a problem. If the weld area, meaning the area in the tube right next to the weld (the heat-affected zone, HAZ) cools too fast, it doesn't have time to change to pearlite. But as it cools down to ~500F, it will start to change into something called martensite.
Good explanation - one of the reasons that some bicycle builders stay away from TIG welding chromo frames. But here's a welding / motorcycle frame question for you: Lots of us own a Honda XR650L, and some of the owners have experienced subframe breaking. The more skilled among us (read that as "not me") have welded in gussets to fix or prevent the notorious subframe breaking. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spud Rider View Post
Here are some photographs forum member Wattner posted in his "L Build for Fun" thread, showing how forum member CycleWizard welded the gussets to the frame of the XR650L.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...s#post15097084







Spud
I'm guessing that the Honda frame is some sort of "high tensile" steel. If it were chromo you know that the advertising guys would be making a big deal out of it. If it's not 4130 how would you recommend sticking gussets in place? TIG? Something else? Any approach that you'd avoid like the plague?
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LexLeroy screwed with this post 12-13-2012 at 10:16 AM
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:16 AM   #3197
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Thank you, I learned. :)

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:56 AM   #3198
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Thank you, I learned. :)

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Thank you too!
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #3199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LexLeroy View Post
I'm guessing that the Honda frame is some sort of "high tensile" steel. If it were chromo you know that the advertising guys would be making a big deal out of it. If it's not 4130 how would you recommend sticking gussets in place? TIG? Something else? Any approach that you'd avoid like the plague?
Those frames are probably plain carbon steel, so the welding method is fairly unimportant. In general TIG gives the best weld quality, but the skill of the welder is number 1, period. A real good MIG weld on mild steel is far better than a crummy TIG weld.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:12 PM   #3200
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My lucky rabbits foot works..or perhaps it is more than just luck...



4130/ER70S-2 / TIG
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:26 PM   #3201
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Benesesso, thank you very much for taking the time to write that up. I learn something new every time I visit the garage forum.

I'm sitting here with "How it's Made" running in the background. They are tempering shovels in an oven while I am trying to glean some knowledge from your post. Pretty awesome!

No wonder I can't stay off this site. I might even have to print that out and hang it on the garage 'fridge!
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:43 PM   #3202
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My lucky rabbits foot works..or perhaps it is more than just luck...



4130/ER70S-2 / TIG
Holy cow, You were on Elmer's crew? My hat is off to you. Never met him, but wanted to.

What are you doing now?
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:50 PM   #3203
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I was taught to make another pass when welding hardened steel and cast iron to add heat and slow cooling.

This helps prove why trigger mig welding or consecutive tacks is a poor method.

David

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Old 12-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #3204
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Holy cow, You were on Elmer's crew? My hat is off to you. Never met him, but wanted to.

What are you doing now?
Same thing as always, fabricating and TIG Welding...That's how I got to be friends with ET, I did alot of work with him and other Fuel guys...some days I miss it, but I stay connected thru Chris Hand (the bike above).
Elmer was a good Friend and Mentor.

You and Warren Johnson (NHRA ProStock Car) could carry on a very interesting conversation, he is probably the smartest hands on guy I have ever met when it comes to metals and properties of them...but he also knows when it just takes a sawzall and a welder..
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:15 AM   #3205
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Originally Posted by Benesesso View Post
Those frames are probably plain carbon steel, so the welding method is fairly unimportant. In general TIG gives the best weld quality, but the skill of the welder is number 1, period. A real good MIG weld on mild steel is far better than a crummy TIG weld.
Maybe I'm reading too much into your past few posts, but might this be why some of the sidecar chassis guys use DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) mild steel tubing rather than chromo for the sidecar subframe and chassis, cost and ease of bending aside - weldability? If that's the case then I have a new-found respect for good old-fashioned mild steel tubing.
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:13 AM   #3206
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Originally Posted by LexLeroy View Post
Maybe I'm reading too much into your past few posts, but might this be why some of the sidecar chassis guys use DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) mild steel tubing rather than chromo for the sidecar subframe and chassis, cost and ease of bending aside - weldability? If that's the case then I have a new-found respect for good old-fashioned mild steel tubing.
I don't think weldability is much of a factor there. I think it's just $$$$, and the builders aren't too concerned with what it ends up weighing.

You won't find much mild steel in aircraft, and none at all in rockets.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:35 AM   #3207
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Originally Posted by LexLeroy View Post
Maybe I'm reading too much into your past few posts, but might this be why some of the sidecar chassis guys use DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) mild steel tubing rather than chromo for the sidecar subframe and chassis, cost and ease of bending aside - weldability? If that's the case then I have a new-found respect for good old-fashioned mild steel tubing.
DOM is plenty strong enough for the size tubing they use, you have to remember that weight in the side car is not a bad thing.
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Old 12-26-2012, 06:54 AM   #3208
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WR250R Swingarm

Bolt backed out of the rear sprocket and gouged the swingarm. For a proper repair, can this be built up by welding?


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Old 12-26-2012, 09:29 AM   #3209
David R
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Laugh

Sure, drop it off.

Yes it can be welded. Not a problem.

David

Edit:
I have posted pictures of broken bolts. This one was a little tougher.

88 Suzuki 600 broken exhaust bolt. I welded a few nuts to it with the SP-100 one of the first Lincoln 110 Volt Mig welders.

No joy, they kept twisting off.

Today we attached the front wheel to the fork lift and picked the bike up. I used a tig torch and some 316 stainless filler.

I welded quite a few nuts to the stud before it finally came out. No pics of the bike. It had no body panels or tank on it.



These are far from all the failures, they are all over the floor.

David
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:52 AM   #3210
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88 Suzuki 600 broken exhaust bolt. I welded a few nuts to it with the SP-100 one of the first Lincoln 110 Volt Mig welders.

No joy, they kept twisting off.

Were you using a breaker bar or ratchet to turn those nuts? I've found that a T-bar is the way to go when trying to apply torque out near the end of a protruding stud.

A T-bar doesn't put any bending force into the stud, only torsion. In the situation of turning a nut that's welded-on out at the end of a stud, a ratchet or breaker bar applies both bending and torsion forces. That dual-direction force results in a break similar to how a tube of Pillsbury biscuits breaks open.

By related analogy, a tire can 100% turn, or 100% stop, but not at the same time.



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