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Old 04-21-2007, 09:07 AM   #166
nachtflug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wannabex2
That is interesting. It sheds new light on your posts in this thread. I think you secretly hate yourself for liking a bike which belongs to a brand that sucks so much.
I wouldn't say the brand as a seperate entity sucks.

its kind of like this Warrant Officer said in the Navy once.

the Navy is the perfect organization on paper.

it's only when you add people that it gets all f'd up.

BMW's are neat bikes for the most part.

BMWNA and their ad writers are a bunch of pin heads.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:18 AM   #167
dhaynes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachtflug

hey at the end of the day if BMW, Buell or Bin Laden can sell me a street legal bike that will loft the front wheel at will and still be able to hold its own in the woods for reasonable money my home equity checkbook is ready to roll. I guess KTM is the closest right now but $8K and then some plus tax is just not going to get me excited.
I'm laughin' witchya Herr Flug, not atchya... BMW NA is "off the track" now. I loved my 1150 Adventure, I love my 1200 Adventure... but the marketing bullshit makes me want to put a Suzuki S or a Maico emblem over the top of the roundel because it's embarassing to be associated with that marketing campaign.

Case in point. I was picked by my dealer to recieve one of the new 2007 "owners kits" (even though mine was an '06). A very fancy leather bound box with a nice book, a CD I've never opened, a leather keychain with the roundel on it, a nice block of lucite with a 3d laser engraved antique BMW in it, a map measuring tool... all kinds of fancy shit.

I can carry that fancy leather bound box out to my bike in the garage and you know what I can't put in it? I can't put a BMW tire plugging kit in it - because my freakin' $22K "round the world" bike didn't even come with a freaking tire plug kit like my 1150 did. I've got a bike where the top case lid opens forward... dumping all the rain and mud onto my seat. A bike that took two tries to fix the front wheel because the brand new wheel they shipped all the way from Germany arrived and it was more out of round than the original wheel was. It's now got a new clutch at 13K miles because a seal failed. Why couldn't they spend the extra $50 on getting the basics right and putting a reasonable toolkit on such an expensive bike rather than spending it on foo-rah like a made-in-China map measurer?

Like I say, I love the bike because it's a very good bike and there isn't really anything out there that can compete with it for comfort and safety, but the marketing crap impying it's "the best possible" is just that, crap.

It just seems to me (being totally ignorant and looking at it from the outside) like there's a big disconnect between BMW in Germany and BMW in North America. BMW Germany is building what look to be some of the cooler bikes around, the sort that real riders will respond to and want to own... meanwhile BMW NA make it seem like the dealers who sell to real riders are bastard children they want to get rid of. They also put prices on the new bikes that real riders are likely to dismiss because there are other bike just as cool and at least as high performance but $1,000 cheaper.

Which (in my usual long, slow, roundabout way) brings me to the reason I won't even consider a 450 or 650 BMW. They (BMW NA) seems to be making it clear they don't want small dealers, they want big, single-brand chrome and steel BMW dealerships who sell to DINKs and other boomers who want some stylish decor for their 8 car garage. I already have to ride 175 miles each way just to get to the only dealer around. If they get pushed out by BMW NA because they "aren't corporate enough", it's going to be 400 miles each way to get parts and service.

I'd expect to be dropping a 450 a whole lot more often than I do my GS. Paying BMW parts prices once or twice a year when I prang something on my GS is annoying but not bank-account threatening. Paying BMW parts prices once a month for something I'm thrashing every weekend on single-track is just out of the question.

I still suffer sticker shock every time I go to buy some bit of farkle for my KTM 950SE. Even with the KTM logo on it, it's almost always well under half the price that BMW charges for the equivalent bit of farkle for the GS, and the KTM stuff is generally more practical (tank bags being a prime example)

Soo... I hope BMW NA picks up the clue phone soon, and I hope that the new 450s and 650s turn out to be decent bikes because they're the kind of bikes that my "local" dealer could probably sell (if they're priced a bit more reasonably anyway). If they just turn out to be miniature HP2s though and my dealer gets saddled with some "or else" quota to move nice but seriously overpriced bits of hardware... then I'll likely be riding the last BMW I'll ever own because the folks here in rural Montana are just too frugal to be pissing away extra dollars for the roundel on the bike and I won't have a "local" dealer.

I've seen some pretty big bike marketing cock-ups over the... jeezus do I have to admit it... decades... that I've been around bikes, but BMW seems to be doing the worst. There's always the "Oh the bikes are shit now they're being made in Italy" or "The Spanish couldn't build a decent gearbox to save their lives" or "I can't believe they didn't put a on it" or whatever... just general market grumblings I guess. BMW NA has managed to draw a bit of fear and dislike (and sometimes downright hatred) directly to the company name. Not where the bikes are made, not what's on them, but who they are as a company.

I wish they'd quit with the freakin' marketing b.s. and go back to selling cool bikes to cool enthusiasts and advertising them to potential new enthusiasts by showing the cool things real people do everyday on their bikes. I personally don't give a shit if a K1200 is 40mph slower than the equivalent UJM models because I don't give a shit how fast it can go in the first place. I want BMWs focus to be on designing and building solid, reliable, safe, good handling and good performing bikes.

Anyway, let's hope the little BMWs turn out to be very good and highly competitive bikes otherwise KTM is liable to raise their prices to match BMWs and simply rest on their laurels as the best hardware out there.
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Old 04-21-2007, 11:27 AM   #168
Stu
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Euro Restrictions

If what Mandarax is experiencing in the EU visits us in the states all of these discussions will be moot. California is pushing hard for similar legislation and bureaucratic fiat. The federal bureaucrats are looking closely at the Euro regulations to see if they can implement similar ones. With the global warming hype a lot of collateral damage, so to speak, could be done and motorcyclists have been favorite targets (read: no political cost for attacking us) for politicians and bureaucrats.

BMW will make and sell a pretty solid product and people will purchase their products regardless of the marketing. However, a friend of mine had surge so bad on his 1150 that, with no help from BMWNA for the dealer in unraveling the problem, he just sold it and bought an FJR never to go back to a BMW. That lack of customer service is what eventually brings even the mighty to bankruptcy.

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Old 04-21-2007, 12:54 PM   #169
dhaynes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu
If what Mandarax is experiencing in the EU visits us in the states all of these discussions will be moot. California is pushing hard for similar legislation and bureaucratic fiat. The federal bureaucrats are looking closely at the Euro regulations to see if they can implement similar ones. With the global warming hype a lot of collateral damage, so to speak, could be done and motorcyclists have been favorite targets (read: no political cost for attacking us) for politicians and bureaucrats.
I have a totally different take on the issue of fixing the laws but off-topic for this thread. The main point I'd make is that the car manfuacturers whined and screamed in the 60's and 70's that seat belts would put them out of business by raising the price of a car by $300 each. They whined and screamed about fuel standards in the 70's putting them out of business (while simultaneously getting their collective asses kicked by the Japanese manufacturers who were putting out better performing cars getting more than twice the gas mileage). They can build high performance engines that have lower emissions than current bikes, it's just that nobody wants to pay extra for it.

As far as I'm concerned we (the collective we - dirt bikers, snowmobilers, ATVers etc.) live in a glass house. We don't burn the gas to get to work or to get groceries, we're doing it just for pure shits and giggles. The planet is warming (it's a fact) and humans doing dumbshit stuff are contributing greatly to that (also a fact) and we be part o' dat hooman race. If I have to give up 5 or 10hp in order to leave the world a miniscule bit better for the little kids I see playing outside my office window... well, so be it. There cute little bastards though I'm not sure that poor dog they're abusing would agree.

(done with off-topic musings/pontification/blather)
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Old 04-21-2007, 08:00 PM   #170
Stu
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Hype

My somewhat loosely phrased charge is due some bashing. The point I would like to make is that the technological changes needed for motorcyclists should not be mandated by bureaucrats that are not engineers. When it is suggested that dirt bikes, for example, have very hot catalytic converters that alone would keep us out of the woods forever. Bureaucrats make blunt choices for us and care not at all for the consequences.

The new Beemer 450 will have to satisfy very stringent Euro standards. It will be interesting how they manage to do that and still obtain performance standards we expect. The "green" KTM EXCs have done very well with this and even in their choked up state perform pretty well.

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Old 04-22-2007, 09:27 AM   #171
Stu
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Glass Houses

I note in today's news that the United Nations report on global warming says cows produce 18% of the greenhouse gases (methane and CO2). I would suggest to DHaynes that he quit eating all forms of meat and take up Tofu and quiche. That would go a lot farther than giving up dirt biking. The money you save you could then use to buy the new, and presumably green, BMW 450.

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Old 04-22-2007, 01:05 PM   #172
Colorado4Wheeler
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Not directed at anyone in particular.

Being green/eco friendly does/should not come at the expense of enjoying your hobby. Manufactures will find a way to maintain performance and fun. This whole thing was hashed out years ago with the auto industry. Everyone thought EPA/Emissions was the end of it all. Truth is we have 30mpg Corvettes as a result. Even if we loose some performance its not only about the bike anyway, it’s about the enjoyment of getting out and doing what you love. Even my 2004 DRZ is greener then driving my truck around that gets 15mpg. That’s one reason I bought the thing. 50mpg vs 15mpg. Simple and good choice for the environment.
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Old 04-22-2007, 01:54 PM   #173
alikerimbey
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New BMW 450 cc enduro

BMW Motorrad tests new concept in competition.

450 cc sports enduro bike enters World Enduro Championship.











The BMW works team will be on the starting line in Puerto Lumbrears at the World Enduro Championship on April 28 and 29. The riders will be sitting on a new 450 single cylinder sports enduro.

During the course of this tough competition BMW Motorrad will be continuing the testing of its new motorcycle concept developed especially for sports use. First test races have already been conducted at the beginning of the year. A number of innovative technical solutions regarding drive and chassis have been put into practice, some of them still unique and some of them have also been patented. The competitive qualities of the 450 cc sports enduro will be tested not only at world championship races, but also at other renowned offroad competitions.

BMW Motorrad motorsports was able to win over the two race-tested offroad professionals Joel Smets and Sascha Eckert. Both seasoned riders aim not only to help achieve respectable results, but will also deliver important information to be used in advancing the bike’s technology.

BMW Motorrad and offroad sports have been closely connected for many years. This successful tradition is not only being kept up by the big 1200 cc flat twins in spectacular sports machines such as the HP2 Enduro, but now also by the 450 cc sports enduro.



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Old 04-22-2007, 01:57 PM   #174
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SWEET !!!!!

MIKE M.
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Old 04-22-2007, 02:08 PM   #175
GB
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merged with an ongoing thread in Thumpers.
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Old 04-22-2007, 04:59 PM   #176
6pyAHNN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alikerimbey
BMW Motorrad tests new concept in competition.

450 cc sports enduro bike enters World Enduro Championship.




Ya, I posted that 2 days and 33 posts ago - no one noticed. Most thing I do go unnoticed. I know it's not a competition, but it would be nice to feel a little loved from time to time.

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Old 04-23-2007, 09:56 AM   #177
DOUBLE-O G
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BMW 450cc First Pic Here!

Just click on the link below. Looks nice!
http://www.moto-station.com/article2...e-sa-450-.html
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:00 AM   #178
Mandarax
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You're only a few weeks late: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209571
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:09 AM   #179
OneGearUp
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well the suspension doesn't lie

looks like a pretty nice bike
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:41 AM   #180
SATEX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Atlanta
Me likes the new BMW 450 and that is something I will sell of my KTM450 for in a heart beat.

I really don't get everyone's worry about the engine and lack of full frame wrapping around the engine. With a proper skid pan it's all pluses and much easier to service, wash and everything else. Not to mention there is an awful lof of clearance there immediately behind the front wheel. That would be great as that's about one of my biggest bitches of any against my EXC's. I always get that lower front lip of the engine banging off of trees when popping over them. The less meat there and the better the approach angle of that meat and one of my personal hurdles will be helped to overcome.
Interesting spin, but I see the design as a POTENTIAL weakness with regard to engine protection. Even with a skid plate, if the engine is an otherwise unprotected and stressed member, it will be taking some big impacts. We'll see though. Even if I'm right, that doesn't mean that that particular "weakness" is really important in real world use.
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