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Old 09-08-2008, 01:55 PM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkartoom
You are talking about me to a large degree because I do support the effort here. I love to have choices and the more TM, Gas Gas, Husky, Sherco, Beta, Husaberg, CCM, BMW, etc. true dirt weapons we have the better IMO. I've never owned a BMW and never even contemplated one until the 650X came about, but the 450X is intriguing. I hope they suceed.

But, I do wonder, based on what they did with the 650X, how much effort and commitment they will put into this project long-term if they don't get it right and sales are not as desired. They own Husky now and I guess it all depends on how much they want that roundel out there in this arena. Also, there are already people laughing off the design of the bike as a poor effort, despite the placings of the hired guns in competitions. I do hope it suceeds. Not because I'm a BMW fan, but because I love dirt bikes. All of them!
I'd love to know what part of the bike as a whole constitutes a "poor design effort"? The frame's rigid yet provides great access to the engine, the co-axial swingarm/sprocket pivot works, it's injected, DOHC & has a four valve head - it's possibly the most modern dirt bike available at this moment in time?

If, and it's a big "if", the G450 fails to hit the mark sales wise, I don't see them giving up on it that easy. It's heavily advertised in Europe, dealership staff have been encouraged to ride the bike for themselves at the Offroad Schools with accomodation & training for both Salesmen & Techs, all at BMW's expense - they've put a masssive effort in to making this bike as good as possible.

The G650 series was based on old engines with a minor rework. I think BMW learnt valuable lessons from those bikes, especially with the X-Challenge & that the knowledge gained stood them in good stead when designing the G450. Comparing the two bikes is like comparing apples & oranges.

Edit: the Akra silencer costs about 525 in the UK or about 630 of those Euro things that Johnny Foreigner insists on using - can help out with anyone wishing to buy Akra's for the G450 in the UK.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian640
Erm...I think BMW were doing 'enduros' as far back as the 1930s. Wasn't the R80G/S born from their 1970s ISDT bikes? What about their desert rally record?
Jesus, good to see someone knows their history a bit here!

Yes, indeed, BMW ran singles in those years IIRC and actually did OK. If they ran the twins in ISDE, then I'm not aware of it. Possible I suppose. Not sure of results.

Far as I know what launched the R80GS was the Dakar race, where they won a few. These bikes were One Off race bikes built by HPN. The Japs had privateer racers using stock bikes outfitted for Dakar, but basically STOCK. Big difference! BMW had a factory backed effort. All the big four made Dakar replicas in these years, not just BMW, so the myth that they began the Adventure bike niche is wrong.

In early Dakar's the Japanese had mostly limited privateer efforts. Later Yamaha France stepped forward with the XTZ/TDM 750/850 based Tenere' riding to six or seven victories by Stephane Peterhansel, most winning Dakar rider ever. Yamaha pulled out mostly because of lack of competition and the fact there were no other Jap factory efforts at the time. Also, in their biggest market,
the USA, the Dakar was almost totally unknown. So benefits were small, cost high.

BMW have not been active in ISDE for 40 years or so? And quit the Dakar in ....? 2001 or '02? '03? not sure.

There are dozens of other race series world wide and you won't find any participation by BMW any where beyond spec series and a brief appearance in late 70's in AMA Superbike ..... Which they WON!
(Reg Pridmore)

But look at normal organized racing, both on and off road in the last 40 years. You won't see participation by BMW anywhere. World GP,
World SBK, UK Superbikes, AMA Superbikes, Moto Cross, Super Cross, Enduro and on and on.

Good to see them contesting races where they can do well. The Erzberg and other knarly enduros are under the radar of the big four .... oh, they know about them, but they let it go, knowing that success of KTM, BMW and other small companies not only help those small companies .... but help the big four as well! The Euros are the ones trying new stuff, so if they went bust, where would the Japanese get new ideas from?

They copy, refine and perfect. That is what they do well. They also build affordable bikes for the masses.
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:51 PM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possu
I'd love to know what part of the bike as a whole constitutes a "poor design effort"? .
Your hint is the broken chains talked about on early G450's. This was one of the big probs with the ATK's with a similar system. You can't run a no slack chain. Now, as one of our posters indicated, BMW have put some slack back in. A good thing. So, to me, the concentric swingarm design could be suspect.

But lets wait and see. The ISDE results are VERY impressive indeed.
Congrats are in order. But lets see how they do world wide in various forms of competition.

If they don't race motocross, then they will operate at a continuous
loss. Which they can afford .... apparently .... as the Car division has supported the Bike division for MOST of BMW's history.

As BMW say, the bike division has always been to promote the prestige and image build and nostalgia, not just to make money.

It is only in the last six years or so that the bike division is running in the black. (mostly due to new R1200GS) Few of their other models are selling well. The G (X moto, X Country) bikes are sitting, the big 1200 in lines are too.

RT's good, GS good, G bike X challenge Good. Not so much for other stuff. But ALL the big four are seeing very slow sales, but dual sports are doing very well .... about 25% up!
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Old 09-08-2008, 02:59 PM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Django Loco
Your hint is the broken chains talked about on early G450's. This was one of the big probs with the ATK's with a similar system. You can't run a no slack chain. Now, as one of our posters indicated, BMW have put some slack back in. A good thing. So, to me, the concentric swingarm design could be suspect.
Merely development. I personally wouldn't run any chain with zero slack, regardless of the swingarm position. You'll always need a little to accomodate the chainn snatch caused by the engines power pulses under acceleration & deceleration. Compare the 5-10mm required on the G450 to the 40mm needed on most dirt bikes. Run a slightly tight chain on a conventional set-up & you'll notice the chain tugging on the suspensuon after a hard landing, doesn't happen with the 450.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking any other system, I love my 400EXC & 950SE, I just believe that BMW should be applauded for entering the market with fresh ideas that may or may not need a little refining once the bikes are are in the hands of the likes of you & me.

Personally, I believe that any criticism should wait until the bikes have been ridden by customers & not just journos, this is when real issues, imagined or otherwise will occur.
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Old 09-08-2008, 04:17 PM   #770
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Since I'm still reading this thread and following the development of this bike, I wanted to throw out something about the warranty issue some of you guys are talking about.

If it's the same with any BMW model, and some of you now have yours, read the fine print in the warranty limits section of the owner's manual.

It (should) clearly state that if the bike used for competition, competitive events, or racing the warranty becomes null and void.

Even my G650XCH manual has this verbage, and in addition to that, any breakage or failure of parts due to "off-road" use is not covered under the basic warranty. Broken frames (only know of one), shift levers (many) and broken oil return banjo-bolt (two known) all have not been covered by BMW warranty service.

Just that I'd pass that along. Read the fine print before you make a warranty claim.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:24 PM   #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkartoom
But, I do wonder, based on what they did with the 650X, how much effort and commitment they will put into this project long-term if they don't get it right and sales are not as desired. They own Husky now and I guess it all depends on how much they want that roundel out there in this arena. Also, there are already people laughing off the design of the bike as a poor effort, despite the placings of the hired guns in competitions. I do hope it suceeds. Not because I'm a BMW fan, but because I love dirt bikes. All of them!
The 650x was only a quick stand in bike and was never sold as a racing bike.

The more I look at the 450 demo bike at my dealer over the last couple of days the more you see the high standard they have put into the bike. I don't know of any other make who has raced a prototype bike out in public view for two years before building a production bike for sale. The problem BMW will have is being able to supply enough bikes.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:57 PM   #772
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@possu: i will keap it in mind about the Akra.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:15 AM   #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PacWestGS
Since I'm still reading this thread and following the development of this bike, I wanted to throw out something about the warranty issue some of you guys are talking about.

If it's the same with any BMW model, and some of you now have yours, read the fine print in the warranty limits section of the owner's manual.

It (should) clearly state that if the bike used for competition, competitive events, or racing the warranty becomes null and void.

Even my G650XCH manual has this verbage, and in addition to that, any breakage or failure of parts due to "off-road" use is not covered under the basic warranty. Broken frames (only know of one), shift levers (many) and broken oil return banjo-bolt (two known) all have not been covered by BMW warranty service.

Just that I'd pass that along. Read the fine print before you make a warranty claim.
I can only say that in the UK, the G450 is marketed as a full on enduro suitable for competition. The warranty will apply as long as it's serviced on schedule & not held at full throttle.
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:52 AM   #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiAdventure
The 650x was only a quick stand in bike and was never sold as a racing bike.

The more I look at the 450 demo bike at my dealer over the last couple of days the more you see the high standard they have put into the bike. I don't know of any other make who has raced a prototype bike out in public view for two years before building a production bike for sale. The problem BMW will have is being able to supply enough bikes.
I didn't see it as a race bike. It came on the market just after I purchased an 01 640 LC4 and got into dual sporting. I was looking at it hard when it came time to get a new scoot, and although I went another direction I was disappointed they ceased production. I was told in part because they weren't selling. I hope the 450 doesn't see a similar fate, but I agree there is a lot more investment in this project.
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Old 09-09-2008, 04:52 AM   #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiAdventure
The 650x was only a quick stand in bike and was never sold as a racing bike.

The more I look at the 450 demo bike at my dealer over the last couple of days the more you see the high standard they have put into the bike. I don't know of any other make who has raced a prototype bike out in public view for two years before building a production bike for sale. The problem BMW will have is being able to supply enough bikes.
I didn't see it as a race bike. It came on the market just after I purchased an 01 640 LC4 and got into dual sporting. I was looking at it hard when it came time to get a new scoot, and although I went another direction I was disappointed they ceased production. I was told in part because they weren't selling. I hope the 450 doesn't see a similar fate, but I agree there is a lot more investment in this project.
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:08 AM   #776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Possu
I'd love to know what part of the bike as a whole constitutes a "poor design effort"? The frame's rigid yet provides great access to the engine, the co-axial swingarm/sprocket pivot works, it's injected, DOHC & has a four valve head - it's possibly the most modern dirt bike available at this moment in time?
The engineer (competitor's) I was over-hearing was commenting on the shock layout specifically. A long-time, well-respected dealer here in the northeast also made similar comments about the shock to me. They mentioned something else, but I don't recall what it was they cited as poorly thought out. I'm not saying I agree with them, just that there is this noise being thrown about. Time will tell, but so far the results don't indicate major design flaws.
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Old 09-09-2008, 10:38 AM   #777
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They will be here this month at a cost of $8693!!!
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:16 AM   #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Django Loco
Jesus, good to see someone knows their history a bit here!

Yes, indeed, BMW ran singles in those years IIRC and actually did OK. If they ran the twins in ISDE, then I'm not aware of it.
Getting off-topic here:

You might have a look at this page: http://micapeak.com/bmw/gs/gs_mono.html

I understand BMW also ran twins in pre-war ISDTs, and that John Penton rode a single-cylinder shaft-drive BMW in enduros.

Cheers.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:21 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by GSDude
They will be here this month at a cost of $8693!!!
??? I went by the dealer today to pick up some parts and asked about the G450...they said "we have no clue...should be 2009"...they expressed frustration with this situation (BMW putting out all the press,with no real details to the dealer)...seems like part of some strange grand plan to me...

oh well...we wait.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:47 AM   #780
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wow, thats as much as an austrian built street legal ktm. shouldn't the pricing be more in line with the japanese offerings since the motor is built in taiwan? is the bike going to be 50-state street legal?

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They will be here this month at a cost of $8693!!!
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