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Old 06-24-2007, 05:36 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudcat
I do not have a good understanding of this but:
Voltage is a measurement of the force of the current.
Amperage is a measurement of the current.
So, intuitively, a drop in amperage results in a loss of voltage.

The stock battery is rated at 12 volts, 14 amp hours. But what does 14AH mean? The drain we are measuring is in mili amps per hour.
I'm hoping one of the inmates who isn't electrically challenged can tell us.

I'm fine with electrics if I can follow procedures, and can even find and fix old style electrical problems, but when it comes to theory I am completely ignorant.
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Old 06-24-2007, 08:19 PM   #62
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I think you missed my post earlier. It was right in the middle of all the personality conflicts.

I have the same issue with my GS12, and its due to the accessory loads, ESPECIALLY the extra added lamps (I have 2 sets as well).

Though the alternators on the GS are strong, they don't charge until close to 3,000 rpms.

You do some short trips on an ABS bike, and the servos do a huge drain as well as the auxilury lamps (assume you burn one set all the time , and if you hold your brakes at stoplights those servos are eatting up current). Simply put, the battery doesn't have time to fully re-charge.

Even after 30 minutes on the Interstate, my battery on my GS was only at 90% charge, though condition of the battery was 100 % (this was tested on the dealers' very expensive battery test machine).

Good luck
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Old 06-24-2007, 09:04 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudcat
So, intuitively, a drop in amperage results in a loss of voltage.
The relationship is described by ohms law. In a DC circuit the formula is E = IR where E is Electromotive force AKA voltage, I is current and R isresistance. Assuming the resistance is constant Mudcat intuits correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudcat
The stock battery is rated at 12 volts, 14 amp hours. But what does 14AH mean? The drain we are measuring is in mili amps per hour.
It means the battery can theoretically supply 14 amps for 1 hour or 1 amp for 14 hours or any combination where amps times hours comes out to 14. In practice it's a curve, where higher discharge rates lower the lifetime. The shape of the curve depends upon battery chemistry and temperature.

A low (miliamp) draw is likely to get as much as 120% of the rated battery capacity. A large amperage draw may get as low as 20% of the rated capacity. See http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00.Glossary/ for the start of more than you care to know about lead acid (which includes gel and AGM) batteries.

// marc
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Old 06-24-2007, 10:50 PM   #64
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Since current has a time aspect to it, it's 5ma/hr. Just as a battery has a amp/hr rating.

So it's 5ma x 24hrs/day x 30 days = 3.6 amps/month which is roughly 25% of a fully charged 14 amp/hr rated battery. But what is equally important here is the voltage the battery will deliver when the starter is engaged and is pulling big amps to spin the engine over.

IF the battery is new (ie it CAN deliver it's full rating of 14 amp/hrs) and was FULLY charged before you left it for a month (both of which are mighty big IF's) then roughly speaking the voltage the battery can provide (just before you hit the start button) is instead of a full 13.25 volts is now about 12.7 (which are realistic numbers) the starter will pull say 150 amps for just a few seconds which will drop the supplied voltage down to roughly 10.5 volts (again a realistic number). If the voltage drops even 1 volt lower certain functions of the bike electronics won't operate correctly. Most spark coils won't generate sufficient spark energy if the supplied voltage is below 9 volts. The EFI systems will not operate properly at 10 volts or lower etc. And they need to while cranking the engine over.

And then add in real world factors like the battery wasn't fully charged before it sat for a month. The battery is already 1 or 2 years old and has been deeply discharged at least once. It's colder (or hotter) than the ideal temperature the battery is rated for and you can begin to see how the battery simply won't have enough energy capability to start the bike. And as you sit there and continue to crank the engine for a longer period of time than normal, which only further depletes the battery, the voltage drops all the more.

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Old 06-25-2007, 04:26 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjen
So it's 5ma x 24hrs/day x 30 days = 3.6 amps/month which is roughly 25% of a fully charged 14 amp/hr rated battery. JJ
That is what it began to look like to me too. And Emoto’s draw is 2 ½ times greater then mine.

Thanks to johnjen and marchyman for providing me, at least, with insight into this issue.
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Old 06-25-2007, 06:22 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudcat
That is what it began to look like to me too. And Emoto’s draw is 2 ½ times greater then mine.

Thanks to johnjen and marchyman for providing me, at least, with insight into this issue.
My draw was only more than yours when I left the MixIt2 amp plugged in (with switch off). Now that I know what is drawing what, I unplug the darn thing. No big deal; it sits in my tank bag. Now I am at what seems to be the typical 5-6 mA draw.

Thanks Johnjen, marchyman, and slowinfastout for the info!
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Old 06-25-2007, 11:36 AM   #67
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Adding that not using the alarm has no impact on its parasitic draw, unless disconnected.
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Old 06-29-2007, 12:54 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto
30 years of licensed riding and this is the first battery draining problem I have ever had that wasn't charging system related.
Eeeeeeegggggaaaddddssss.....then you never rode 50s or 60s Brit bikes with Lucas electrics.....I believe the Lucas folks used junk science to design the m/c electrical systems....switches, alternators (earlier designes used DC generators driven off the cam gear), rectifiers and even cloth covered wiring harneses...those were the days.

Then along came Honda with their electric start motorcycles....the rest is history.
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowinfastout
I think you missed my post earlier. It was right in the middle of all the personality conflicts.

I have the same issue with my GS12, and its due to the accessory loads, ESPECIALLY the extra added lamps (I have 2 sets as well).

Though the alternators on the GS are strong, they don't charge until close to 3,000 rpms.

You do some short trips on an ABS bike, and the servos do a huge drain as well as the auxilury lamps (assume you burn one set all the time , and if you hold your brakes at stoplights those servos are eatting up current). Simply put, the battery doesn't have time to fully re-charge.

Even after 30 minutes on the Interstate, my battery on my GS was only at 90% charge, though condition of the battery was 100 % (this was tested on the dealers' very expensive battery test machine).

Good luck
All you folks with 12GSs need to instal HID headlamps to halve the current drain from the headlight when riding. This will help keep batteries in a better state of charge when short-hauling....Oh and HIDs provide about 2.5 X the light of the 55 watt OE lamp.
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:12 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpalamar
The care and feeding of batteries in a cycle, motorhome, golf carts, whatever continues to be a vexing problem. The culprit may be the battery because of some heretofore abuses. Dropping-a battery below 80% of its charge capacity too many times (what's too many and how could that happen you ask) signiicantly affects the battery's ability to hold a future charge, but is not limited to that: incorrect alternator output voltage, etc. can do that as well. You dealer should be able to easily determine the ouput of your alternator but you have to ask, remember, they ain't all gonna volunteer and also put a 'load' test on your battery. Checking the output (voltage) of your battery NOT UNDER LOAD is worthless.

And while most will disagree with me on this, I purchased Deltran's Battery Tender and keep the battery on it whenever I'm not riding (in garage). Don't use one of the el-cheapo trickle chargers or worse yet, a high-amperage charger. If your bike is a CAN-bus model, install a direct to battery pigtail for the Battery Tender. While some may consider this a PITA a dead battery is a bigger one! Proper caring for a battery will truly extend its life and not leave you in the lurch when you most need it. Also, the pigtail, furnished with Deltran's Battery tender terminates with a 'capped' SAE plug and a set of battery clip cables. Throw those battery clip cable (with the SAE plug on the end) in your important stuff to carry. Should you ever need a jump, while not long enough to reach a car battery, you could at least reach someone's jump cable. Also, make sure if you get a jump they turn off their engine.
Is the pigtail for convenience (so you don't have to remove the seat), or are you nervous about connecting the Battery Tender to the battery while the battery is still connected to the bike?
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:18 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by def
Eeeeeeegggggaaaddddssss.....then you never rode 50s or 60s Brit bikes with Lucas electrics.....I believe the Lucas folks used junk science to design the m/c electrical systems....switches, alternators (earlier designes used DC generators driven off the cam gear), rectifiers and even cloth covered wiring harneses...those were the days.

Then along came Honda with their electric start motorcycles....the rest is history.
You are correct. My riding career started with a 1976 CB750F (that I still have).
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