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Old 05-06-2008, 03:05 PM   #1501
xlcr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
If the EWS system is undefeatable, why do they have "security" one way fasteners holding it in place?
They anticipated high demand for the part on the "lightly-used" market.
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Old 05-06-2008, 03:10 PM   #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlcr
They anticipated high demand for the part on the "lightly-used" market.



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Old 05-06-2008, 04:54 PM   #1503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Excellent point...if the antenna is just a transmitter of a signal from the key to bike's BMSK/ECU why would removal of it allow anyone to steal the bike?
...
The bolts are there for the ign switch, the ring is just captive.
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:02 PM   #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
Maybe the motor starts without an EWS antenna, with a termination resistor in place of the EWS antenna. (I head that somewhere )

Or . . . It could be that the EWS can be switched off by a command from the BMW GT1 diagnostic computer.
I doubt it on both counts. We are lead to believe that the BMS-K needs the correct key code transmitted by the EWS antenna in order to permit the engine to start..

If the GT1 could disable it, they would have done so on factory race bikes.... or Jimmy Lewis's factory HP2 in Baja where I seem to recall he was forced out of the race due to EWS issue.

and so we go around in circles....
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Old 05-06-2008, 05:09 PM   #1505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjack
The bolts are there for the ign switch, the ring is just captive.
Don't the EWS antenna and Ignition switch each have their own set of security fasteners?


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Old 05-06-2008, 05:14 PM   #1506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadget Boy
I doubt it on both counts. We are led to believe that the BMS-K needs the correct key code transmitted by the EWS antenna in order to permit the engine to start..

If the GT1 could disable it, they would have done so on factory race bikes.... or Jimmy Lewis's factory HP2 in Baja where I seem to recall he was forced out of the race due to EWS issue.

and so we go around in circles....
You may have been "led to believe".

S'alright you can act-as-if when the time comes.

Peace


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Old 05-06-2008, 06:04 PM   #1507
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Either Way..Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside


Don't the EWS antenna and Ignition switch each have their own set of security fasteners?

Even if the screw/bolts hold the key and antenna or just the antenna or just the key..the question still stands: Why put security screws on a anti-theft system that "can't be disabled/by-passed" [meaning bike could be started if it was removed]?
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Old 05-06-2008, 06:09 PM   #1508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Even if the screw/bolts hold the key and antenna or just the antenna or just the key..the question still stands: Why put security screws on a anti-theft system that "can't be disabled/by-passed" [meaning bike could be started if it was removed]?
I don't know, ask the believers

Get a terminating resistor on there in place of the EWS, or, just see if the bike starts without it. Try it while you are at the dealer if you are worried about getting the bike started afterward.


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Old 05-06-2008, 08:10 PM   #1509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Even if the screw/bolts hold the key and antenna or just the antenna or just the key..the question still stands: Why put security screws on a anti-theft system that "can't be disabled/by-passed" [meaning bike could be started if it was removed]?
It's how security guys think. They are not only concerned with theft of the bike, but theft of bike use. They want to protect the bike from people who think it'd be great fun to remove the antenna from the bike and watch the poor owner flail.

See http://www.schneier.com/essay-210.html to get a rough idea how security folks think.

// marc
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:18 PM   #1510
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Damn Marc You Are Giving Me A Headache!

Quote:
Originally Posted by marchyman
It's how security guys think. They are not only concerned with theft of the bike, but theft of bike use. They want to protect the bike from people who think it'd be great fun to remove the antenna from the bike and watch the poor owner flail.

See http://www.schneier.com/essay-210.html to get a rough idea how security folks think.

// marc
Ouch! That double think is scrambling my two remaining synapses...do you mean BMW is watching us flail? After of course we purchased an antenna...or two.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:20 PM   #1511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Ouch! That double think is scrambling my two remaining synapses...do you mean BMW is watching us flail? After of course we purchased an antenna...or two.
Yeah, I don't think that way either, but I've spent lots of time around security minded folks (in the software security business) that do. They are strange

As for me... my GS is almost 3 years old with about 33K on the odometer and I'm still on the original antenna ring. The only thing on the bike (excluding farkles and tires) that isn't original are the rear brake pads and a set of transmission seals (replace under warranty).

// marc
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:37 AM   #1512
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
Maybe the motor starts without an EWS antenna, with a termination resistor in place of the EWS antenna. (I head that somewhere )

Or . . . It could be that the EWS can be switched off by a command from the BMW GT1 diagnostic computer.
The EWS failure is a software thing only. Yes, it seems as if a hardware device has failed, but the the "decision" to make the bike un-startable has been done in software. Like this:

(def start-bike? ()
(if (TheftProtectionTurnedOn)
(if (not (comm-with-key-OK))
;; wrong key or antenna failure
(flash-EWS-error)
nil))
t)

Sorry for the 1950-style programming, but you get the idea. The procedure TheftProtectionTurnedOn might read a variable, check for the precense of some jumper, or what have you. Thus, I think it is highly unlikely that it can not be turned off in software.

But more interesting: You are repeating the terminating resistor. Not without reason, I assume, and I hear you. I'm holding my breath as we wait for someone with a 12GS to try this out. Next to the RC4 leak in 1994 this might become a nice story to tell in our security cources. If what you say it true, it will become a classical example of "security by obscurity".

Here is the deal: Pool your resources and send me 15.000 euro on paypal, and I'll dash down and buy a 12GS and try it out. What'ya think?

[Edit: "a jumper" is a bit of information which, for example, can be implemented as a pre-defined resistor in place of the antenna. Just saying.]
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tagesk screwed with this post 05-07-2008 at 12:51 AM
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Old 05-07-2008, 05:27 AM   #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk
The EWS failure is a software thing only. Thus, I think it is highly unlikely that it can not be turned off in software.

[Edit: "a jumper" is a bit of information which, for example, can be implemented as a pre-defined resistor in place of the antenna. Just saying.]
That much is certain. "... it is highly likely it can be turned off in software."


[Re: Edit: Maybe it's a language difference. In the US, the term 'jumper' means a plain wire or lead, no resistance. A 'termination resistor' is a line impedance.]


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Poolside screwed with this post 05-07-2008 at 06:16 PM
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Old 05-07-2008, 08:29 AM   #1514
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Thumb I would have used a jumber

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside
[Re: Edit: Maybe it's a language difference. In the US, the term 'jumper' means a plain wire or lead, no resistance. A 'termination resistor' is a line impedance.]
To turn off functionality, you need a bit of information to trigger the IF-test. That could, for example, be a jumper installed somewhere (I used the correct term).

Or, to make it less easy to figure out, a resistor where the resistance would be the "secret". So, for example: if the antenna is replaced with a 1Kohm load, the bike will start. If you replace it with a 2Kohm load, it will not start. In this case, if you saw a bike without the antenna, to find the secret resistance you need to steal the bike and take it apart to find and measure the resistor. Or a resistor which is a secret number multiplied with the last two digis in the VIN.

Or it could be that you poke a value into some reserved memory location in a PROM (of which I am sure there are several).

It sucks to deal with analog values in a digital system, so I believe it is programmable (poke), or a jumper between two wires somewhere.

Let us say that regulations changed so the anti-theft would no longer be required. The programmable solution (poking) would require all bikes to come in for reprogramming. Thus, if I designed it, I would use a jumper (or resistor) to create a connection between two wires, detect at run-time, and just start the engine.

Here is how I would have designed it: To disengage, you need to install a jumber in the fuse box AND insert an original key in the antenna. That, as long as the jumber stays in place, will disable the system.

The problem with the antenna (as a place) is that you can see it. Thus I would use some other set of wires. In the fuse box, for example. So to find out if the system was disabled you would have to steal the bike to check if the jumber was installed. But if you steal it, you can take it apart and sell the parts, so the owner has lost anyway.

Oh well - as noone picked up my offer to fund a 12GS I'll take my trouble free 1150GS for a spin. Have a nice afternoon!

I am, by the way, impressed that there has been no leaks from inside BWM on this. That is, no leaks that have been identified as leaks.

[TaSK]
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:24 AM   #1515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk

I am, by the way, impressed that there has been no leaks from inside BWM on this. That is, no leaks that have been identified as leaks.

[TaSK]
Engineers, developers, et al, is it possible there is no workaround? As importantly is the somewhat blase attitude of BMW dealer technicians about the whole thing?

And while the following is not necessarily directly related, Jim/Poolside has an old ECU from my '06 K12R. It's a perfectly good ECU BTW, but the reason the dealer had to put in a NEW ECU is simply because I wanted a spare key. Whatever code was supposed to be in BMW's database tying VIN and ECU together did not exist. The only way to get me a spare key was to send a new ECU and two (2) keys. Nothing could be cobbed together to tie a VIN, ECU, on an existing bike. Seems nuts, and not relevant to this, unless, who knows.
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