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Old 05-19-2008, 09:33 AM   #1696
NBeener
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS
No offense, but ANY vehicle could strand you without warning. That argument doesn't work for me.
Eh. It works for me.

It's not "ANY vehicle." It's a go-anywhere, whether or not there's infrastructure or cell reception, vehicle.

It's marketed to us as such.

I don't feel the same way about my passenger sedan, but ... if I had to carry a spare battery in my trunk because of a known issue ... I wouldn't be happy about that, either.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I've been in this part of business before.

The more of us who sit on our hands and keep swapping part #'s (at our expense), the less pressure there is on BMW to get this fixed, quickly, and at THEIR (not our) expense.

Again, I suggest that everybody who's interested send a respectfully-worded e-mail to BMW asking about the status of this, expressing their concern, and how it may have altered their plans for purchasing, keeping, or using this bike.

It's pretty simple: the more noise we make, the more implicit pressure is on them to allocate additional engineering/$$ resources.

The less noise we make, the less pressure is on them.

Where some of us may differ is in our level of faith that BMW is "doing everything possible at all due haste" to resolve this.

Right now, this is costing them very little, in today-dollars-in-their-pocket.

They could even be profiting from it (antenna ring sales).

Cynical? Maybe.

Accurate? Could be.

And ... I still have no particular confidence that the -247 (or whatever it is) IS the fix. Just not enough sample size to know....
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:02 AM   #1697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk
Why do you assume that?

I seem to recall Poolside quoting the requirements from DOT. DOT as in US Department of Transportation, in the USA, not in Europe.

[TaSK]
I may have inadvertently and unintentionally created the CAN-bus BS that's going on. I only used the CAN-bus models to ID those bikes with the new immobilizer/antenna ring issue. FWIW, the F650s and some of the X-country models may indeed have CAN-bus but no antenna rings. I don't know. Figured tho', not pertinent since this forum specifically for GS's/1100/1150/1200/HP2.

So, want a BMW, want comfort, don't want an antenna ring...ta ta K1200LT!
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:33 AM   #1698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBeener
Eh. It works for me.

It's not "ANY vehicle." It's a go-anywhere, whether or not there's infrastructure or cell reception, vehicle.

It's marketed to us as such.
I agree except that ANY go-anywhere vehicle could die out in the middle of nowhere. I might not be an EWS ring that lets you down, but something else sure could. Remind me to tell you about the time my old Jeep decided to quit running out in the middle of the desert.

There is a known problem with the ring, agreed, and BMW should fix it ASAP. But let's look at it this way: if you're going out in harm's way, the prudent thing to do would be to bring tools and spares to get you back. You'd bring a tire patch kit, on older bikes you'd bring points, you would bring inner tubes for some bikes, for some you might want to bring a spare chain link, etc. If there's a part you're afrain might break and leave you stranded, you bring a spare or something to fix it with. So I take a spare ring and I'm good to go.


I guess what I'm getting at is YES there is a problem with the ring. I just don't see it as all that big of a deal. I would prefer they fixed it and will write an email to that effect. But it is not diminishing the joy I feel from owning and riding this bike.
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:57 AM   #1699
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I agree with everything you've written, but ... on this bit ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS
You'd bring a tire patch kit, on older bikes you'd bring points, you would bring inner tubes for some bikes, for some you might want to bring a spare chain link, etc. If there's a part you're afrain might break and leave you stranded, you bring a spare or something to fix it with. So I take a spare ring and I'm good to go.
...would add the following:

If I had reason to believe the -247 actually DID FIX the problem ... I'd be right there with you.

At this point, though, we really don't have reason to believe that it fixed anything, so -- at least for now -- I think people should consider whether or not they want to alter any plans -- buying, selling, riding, or whatever -- based on that
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Old 05-19-2008, 10:59 AM   #1700
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Teutonic Paranoia?

My buddy asserts that no matter how high he cranks his heat in the winter his 750 still blows cold air out of one vent to keep him awake.

My wife's new (and older) MB 550 thinks 72 degrees on the climate control is really 68 degrees.

The HD (perhaps others) solution of keying in a 'code' via the turn-signal switches excellent solution and must at least meet some/all DOT requirement for anti-theft regs??? So, unless this [our BMW soluton to anti-theft] is just a pee-poor design OR the cost associated with retrofitting 'keying in a code' or something that disables the damn thing too damn expensive. Or, is it teutonic paranoia? Hey, I have my spare, I drink Kool-Aid, but just maybe the 247 has solved it, huh?
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:01 AM   #1701
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After having kicked around various vehicle & other forums over the years, it seems to me that there is a consistent pattern of people that buy things that have a solid reputation as being long lasting & dependable spend a huge amount of time bitching about every possible flaw. On the forums of vehicles that are known to have issues, it seems like owners tend to discuss modifications & performance & other fun stuff, and take problem issues in stride, even sweeping them under the rug. Go to a Ducati forum & there is very little talk of serious issues. I know a guy who got a BMW 5 series car, and pretty much blew off his electircal problems & the fact that the dealer told him that if he parks the car for 4 days or more it would be best to have it on a trickle charger (A car???? A Hundai can be parked a month & not have problems).

So in short, the very fact that BMW riders bitch & moan reflects well for the perception of the bikes.

I am really glad that the antennae ring problems seem to have solved the FD problems. Where is that FD thread anyway????

With any luck, the Handguard glitches will solve the antennae rings.

At least on the internet, that is.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:05 AM   #1702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalRob
With any luck, the Handguard glitches will solve the antennae rings.

At least on the internet, that is.
Didja ever notice that if you snap off the ends of the clutch and brake levers, about 3/4 of an inch prior to the useless ball, that the levers will never hit the handguards. It seems that there's a casting indent there to make the snapping off easy as hell! And, rumor has it that it will fix the antenna ring and final drive issues (let's not forget the fuel pump relay) as well!
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:18 AM   #1703
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo100
Can someone more technical than me (not hard to find) explain how the ring antenna is different than the metal rod sticking out of the quarterpanel of my truck and how it can fail in any other way than a physical break and disconnection from the receiver?
First of all, I do not claim to be more technical than you. But I have read every message in this thread and believe it or not, if you skip the crap (of which there is a lot) you can learn a lot.

We don't know why the antenna is failing. In particular because if you want a failed antenna replaced by BMW, you need to let them replace it. That is, they get to keep the old one.
As far as I know, noone has so far chosen to purchase a new antenna just to be able to open up a broken one to find out why they fail.

The most likely scenario seems to be that the physical device (the ring) has been poorly designed or manufactured. The fact that they seem to fail at (very) low milage indicate a clear-cut point of failure. Either it fails on you, or it will last forever (for a suitable definition of forever).

If it happens to you, you are stranded. Simple. Might be hard to deal with on many levels (the 15.000 euro bike will be less than two weeks old :-), but it is simple to grasp. Your bike failed and you had to replace the part that caused it. Simple.

It isn't more complicated than that. It has nothing to with Canbus, nothing to do with cryptography, doesn't seem to be radio-related (interference). Expect for the theories that it is a scam by BMW to squeeze 50 euro out of a random set of owners consensus seems to be that for some reason BMW has been unfortunate in their effort to rectify the issue (in that the new part seems to fail as well).
That many dislike DOT (which is a US-based institution) and DOT requirements, dislike electronics, dislike Canbus, dislike technology, and what not, and use this thread to vent it doesn't add much or change the issue at hand.

As far as I know, no failure has been reported on the antenna with part number ...247.

I am convinced quite a few will disagree in my interpretation of "consensus". But what can I do about it?

But to fend off some of the heat: I would be very annoyed if I had invested 15.000 euro in a bike and it failed the first week, I haven't defended BMW, and I don't even know what cool-aid is.

[TaSK]
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:19 AM   #1704
tagesk
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by SocalRob
I am really glad that the antennae ring problems seem to have solved the FD problems. Where is that FD thread anyway????
Preserved in the GSpot FAQ for future generations to enjoy :-)

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Old 05-19-2008, 11:30 AM   #1705
jpalamar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk
I haven't defended BMW, and I don't even know what cool-aid is.

[TaSK]
Nice reply! Google Jim Jones, Guyana, mass murder/suicide. FYI- Kool-Aid. A very sweet, inexpensive drink. Sometimes sold by youngsters in their own driveways!

Drink the Kool-Aid I believe refers to the 'mass-suicide' we non-questioning BMW owners take by accepting BMW's drivel. I like grape BTW!

Wikipedia:Some followers obeyed Jones' instructions to commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanicde-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid[36][37] (often misidentified as Kool-Aid), along with a sedative. Children were given the drink first and families were told to lie down together.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:31 AM   #1706
NBeener
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk
Expect for the theories that it is a scam by BMW to squeeze 50 euro out of a random set of owners
I'd like to ask caution in phrasing this.

I don't recall seeing anybody theorizing that BMW did this intentionally TO get an extra 50 euro out of anybody, BUT ... having been senior management in NYSE-traded companies in the past, I'm /well/ aware that some things just aren't A True Problem if the company is making, not losing, money from it.

Here's the math:

Costs:
  • actual (not threatened) loss in sales from the problem (difficult to quantify)
  • cost to actually fix the problem, including opportunity cost of having engineering resources focused on this issue, rather than other issues
  • Warranty/Roadside service claims for the relatively few that have the failure
Benefit:
  • Gross margin $$ generated from sales of spare ring (or multiple rings) to a number of customers that is likely MANY times greater than those who experienced the failure in the first place
As I say ... cynical, but not necessarily wrong. If/when the cost/benefit ratio turns upside down on them, they may view it differently.

We don't know where they are in that process yet, and are almost certain NOT to find out.
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Old 05-19-2008, 11:47 AM   #1707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBeener
I'd like to ask caution in phrasing this.

I don't recall seeing anybody theorizing that BMW did this intentionally TO get an extra 50 euro out of anybody, BUT ... having been senior management in NYSE-traded companies in the past, I'm /well/ aware that some things just aren't A True Problem if the company is making, not losing, money from it.

Here's the math:

Costs:
  • actual (not threatened) loss in sales from the problem (difficult to quantify)
  • cost to actually fix the problem, including opportunity cost of having engineering resources focused on this issue, rather than other issues
  • Warranty/Roadside service claims for the relatively few that have the failure
Benefit:
  • Gross margin $$ generated from sales of spare ring (or multiple rings) to a number of customers that is likely MANY times greater than those who experienced the failure in the first place
As I say ... cynical, but not necessarily wrong. If/when the cost/benefit ratio turns upside down on them, they may view it differently.

We don't know where they are in that process yet, and are almost certain NOT to find out.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:47 PM   #1708
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Thank you, tagesk, for your kind reply.

I have read (ok, skimmed) as much as my attention span will allow on this topic on ADVR as well as other forums. I can not find a technical explanation of how an antenna can cease to function assuming no physical damage or break in connection to the receiver. If the ring antenna is indeed a simple antenna in the traditional sense of the word with no circuitry or complex components...how does it just break or fail and why are we attributing the number of miles as an indicator of a failure? I'd think it has to do with other attributes such as number of starts, other electrical components, electrical system variables, and environments in which the failures occurred.

It would be great to see data across a large number of failures with these (or other pertinent) variables documented as well as a comparison of failures vs. the total population (and sub-sets such as year of manufacture).

I am truly interested in learning from a technical perspective because I am not able to put the pieces together in my head.

My '07 GS with less than 1000 miles on it and I am the type of person who likes to learn all the technical details and background of the issue.

If anyone can help, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,
Bret





Quote:
Originally Posted by tagesk
First of all, I do not claim to be more technical than you. But I have read every message in this thread and believe it or not, if you skip the crap (of which there is a lot) you can learn a lot.

We don't know why the antenna is failing. In particular because if you want a failed antenna replaced by BMW, you need to let them replace it. That is, they get to keep the old one.
As far as I know, noone has so far chosen to purchase a new antenna just to be able to open up a broken one to find out why they fail.

The most likely scenario seems to be that the physical device (the ring) has been poorly designed or manufactured. The fact that they seem to fail at (very) low milage indicate a clear-cut point of failure. Either it fails on you, or it will last forever (for a suitable definition of forever).

If it happens to you, you are stranded. Simple. Might be hard to deal with on many levels (the 15.000 euro bike will be less than two weeks old :-), but it is simple to grasp. Your bike failed and you had to replace the part that caused it. Simple.

It isn't more complicated than that. It has nothing to with Canbus, nothing to do with cryptography, doesn't seem to be radio-related (interference). Expect for the theories that it is a scam by BMW to squeeze 50 euro out of a random set of owners consensus seems to be that for some reason BMW has been unfortunate in their effort to rectify the issue (in that the new part seems to fail as well).
That many dislike DOT (which is a US-based institution) and DOT requirements, dislike electronics, dislike Canbus, dislike technology, and what not, and use this thread to vent it doesn't add much or change the issue at hand.

As far as I know, no failure has been reported on the antenna with part number ...247.

I am convinced quite a few will disagree in my interpretation of "consensus". But what can I do about it?

But to fend off some of the heat: I would be very annoyed if I had invested 15.000 euro in a bike and it failed the first week, I haven't defended BMW, and I don't even know what cool-aid is.

[TaSK]
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:02 PM   #1709
tagesk
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by NBeener
I don't recall seeing anybody theorizing that BMW did this intentionally TO get an extra 50 euro out of anybody, BUT ... having been senior management in NYSE-traded companies in the past, I'm /well/ aware that some things just aren't A True Problem if the company is making, not losing, money from it.
I live in Italy, a country with a political history that makes the Clinton area the smoothest water you have ever sailed in. Here, conspiratory theories are a form of art.

In spite of this I find it hard to believe BMW is not working to fix this. You seem to have forgotten that the rings fail on very low milage. These bikes are under warranty. Furthermore, you must deduct from the (concieved) profid made from ADVriders buying spare antennas, the work charged by dealer on the warranty work. And also the towing service. How many antennas must be sold (not replaced on warranty, remember) to compensate for one single inmate here that decides that "I won't take this shit!" or "I won't be labelled as an idiot!"?

I think that if you want to create a viable theory of hidden profits, murky motives and secondary agendas, you must find one that is less easy to take apart. The numbers seems to be against you.

Unless, of course, you can come up with indications that BMW has manufactures one billion (instead of one million - a singel letter error, can happen to anyone!) antennas and is in dire need of pushing them out the door.

For the recond: I am a conspiratory connaisseur so I'm all yours

[TaSK]
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:15 PM   #1710
tagesk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo100
I can not find a technical explanation of how an antenna can cease to function assuming no physical damage or break in connection to the receiver. If the ring antenna is indeed a simple antenna in the traditional sense of the word with no circuitry or complex components...how does it just break or fail and why are we attributing the number of miles as an indicator of a failure? I'd think it has to do with other attributes such as number of starts, other electrical components, electrical system variables, and environments in which the failures occurred.
The antenna is embedded inside the plastic housing. One credible suggestion was that the wire that make up the antenna is too thin. Embedded inside the plastic, exposed to heat and vibration, it might break. And when the antenna is dead, the bike is dead int he water.

Remember the antenna is a coil, and if each and every winding is embedded in the plastic, and the plastic expands due to heat, it might be suficcient to pull the wire apart. Maybe, and again this is credible, BMW issues a new part number with thicker wire (the 136, I dont' remember). Now they've made it even thicker (the 24/7).
Be aware: These are speculations, but at least does not contradict neither common sense nor the observed failures.

Around post 1150 (nice number, by the way) in this thread you will find my summary of the first 1.000 posts in this thread. I found 45 failures reported, many from non-returning users.

There are, as far as I know, no common denominator other than low mileage. Feel free to read the previous 1.500 posts to find the 46 failures and verify that I didn't overlook anything.

My life is too short, and I really have to work hard to reach the 20.000 km on the GS I have set as my goal this year, so I rely on others to report here what is discussed in other fora. Feel free to report here what you find from reading thousand posts in some other forum; in Excel, please :-)

Heck, my bike is so old that I don't even have an antenna. I really need to ride more.

[TaSK]
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