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Old 09-07-2007, 08:25 AM   #466
NBeener
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Take care, Bobby.

Have a great day.
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:25 AM   #467
JimVonBaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NBeener
Wow, Bobby. I'm not sure which is more bizarre: that you keep going or that I keep answering you.

Either way: it's simple: YOU don't have more info. That's okay. It's really okay.

I, OTOH, just e-mailed BMW. Maybe they do.

Maybe somebody else will dissect a failed ring. Maybe somebody else has a brother-in-law whose a EE that works on antennas like this and can give us some additional info.

So ... really, really: I'm pretty relaxed, while at the same time, curious.

What's happening to YOUR blood pressure trying to convince the couple of people who want a little more info that they should drop it?

... and what will YOU gain? I'm genuinely curious.....
Do you know what a ring antenna looks like inside? It is nothing but a coil of wire. When it fails a wire broke. Disection by a lay person would be pointless. It requires very specialized knowledge to get any information from it.

If you think BMW is going to tell you why they are failing, or even acknowledge there is an issue, you will be sadly dissapointed. They are well known for keeping this kind of information out of the publics, and dealers, hands.

Jim
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:26 AM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimVonBaden
Do you know what a ring antenna looks like inside? It is nothing but a coil of wire. When it fails a wire broke. Disection by a lay person would be pointless. It requires very specialized knowledge to get any information from it.

If you think BMW is going to tell you why they are failing, or even acknowledge there is an issue, you will be sadly dissapointed. They are well known for keeping this kind of information out of the publics, and dealers, hands.

Jim
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:53 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by Redbull Addict
Well, my bike was ready the next day. Supposedly there's a new antenna part #. My receipt was part #61357696463.
Now that I think about it, this is interesting if true. Different part number could be a different design (it could also just be a different manufacturer). Maybe BMW did something to decrease the failure rate in the future, but the current failure rate was insufficient to warrant a recall...
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:56 AM   #470
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Bluhduh Understood: Things Break..But Why No Word From BMW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Atlanta
BMW pays the warranty claim, they'll know!! It's money out of their pocket. Fact of the matter is as it's been stated numerous times and while it's a concern, it's far less of a failure rate percentage then qualifies for any recall, emergency action or redesigning the whole system. It'd be great if nothing ever failed, but even hammers probably have a 1% failure rate in their lifetime.
Bobby...I realize that are service/maintenance problems that arise and yes things break...but forget about the fixation on what percentage of the bikes sold have a reoccurring problem...BMW should address reoccurring problems with the bikes they sell..Period. Not talking about a recall, just a BMW modification or service bulletin on how to diminish the failures.

My question to you still stands: Why no word from BMW on the reoccurring failures of the antenna/chip/immobilizer ignition system?

No acknowlegment, never a word, as if it doesn't exist.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:22 AM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Bobby...I realize that are service/maintenance problems that arise and yes things break...but forget about the fixation on what percentage of the bikes sold have a reoccurring problem...BMW should address reoccurring problems with the bikes they sell..Period. Not talking about a recall, just a BMW modification or service bulletin on how to diminish the failures.
You can't forget about the percentages. I'm sure that is what BMW uses to determine their course of action. Something like this:
X occurrences - do nothing (costs more to investigate than to fix the few occurrences)
Y occurrences - investigate...call in failed parts from service departments and see if there is a common cause that can be avoided in the future. Don't recall, just take your licks from disgruntled customers and fix the problems as the occur.
Z occurrences - recall...determine affected vehicles by VIN, design/prove new parts and replacement procedures, manufacture, distribute, and call in affected vehicles for service.

Recalls are extremely expensive. They aren't going to do a recall unless the problem is big enough that it's going to be more cost effective to do a recall or there is a safety issue. If BMW thinks that the number of repairs is large enough and they are losing reputation due to reliability issues (an intangible cost that hurts sales) they will do a recall. If not, they will not do anything other than pay for the warranty work.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:42 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Bobby...I realize that are service/maintenance problems that arise and yes things break...but forget about the fixation on what percentage of the bikes sold have a reoccurring problem...BMW should address reoccurring problems with the bikes they sell..Period. Not talking about a recall, just a BMW modification or service bulletin on how to diminish the failures.

My question to you still stands: Why no word from BMW on the reoccurring failures of the antenna/chip/immobilizer ignition system?

No acknowlegment, never a word, as if it doesn't exist.

Re-occurring by whose definition? What would you do if you sold 100 pencils and one of them had crappy britle lead? Would you try to contact all of the buyers and re-design the pencil because 99 of them worked like a champ? I am not defending BMW as much as I am pointing out the obvious cost vs benefit for the manufacturer and ultimately the consumer. Final drives have about 2-3 times the amount of failure, yet you're not raising a stink about that? WHY???? Ever researched the percentage of failure for the tires your riding on? Ever read the statistics on speeding and the results? Yet do you speed? So why should BMW have to publicly address such a small scale failure? A valve stem cracks and they have to send out a press release? Does that sound right? BMW when they see a problem fixes it, look at the TPM issue, they recalled it immediately because there was a potential for a slight leak on some spoked wheels with the first design. If there was such a smoking gun with the immobilizer antennae you can bet they would have nipped it in the ass quickly, but what we have so far is a very small number of non-specific geographically and model failures using the same part number antennae. If the problem grows in number you will see a TSB from BMW, if it's a really big problem the NHTSA will get involved. BMW warranty reps will not recommend immediate replacement of the antennae in the event of an EWS failure. Instead the dealer is to go through a labor intensive process of elimination to determine if indeed the antennae is at fault which BMW ultimately pays for. If the antennae proved to be an overly common issue, it would be in BMW's best interest to release a TSB stating to plug in a known good antennae and see if the problem still persists, but they don't. They'd rather have the dealers follow due process of inspecting the whole system rather then just the antennae which has been the more popular candidate. If you believe that the immobilizer needs to be addressed, start writing letters to NHTSA and BMW and see where that gets ya, posting in an internet forum will accomplish very little on your agenda.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:44 AM   #473
Wallowa
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Missed Point: Credibility and Trust Is The Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylexot
You can't forget about the percentages. I'm sure that is what BMW uses to determine their course of action. Something like this:
X occurrences - do nothing (costs more to investigate than to fix the few occurrences)
Y occurrences - investigate...call in failed parts from service departments and see if there is a common cause that can be avoided in the future. Don't recall, just take your licks from disgruntled customers and fix the problems as the occur.
Z occurrences - recall...determine affected vehicles by VIN, design/prove new parts and replacement procedures, manufacture, distribute, and call in affected vehicles for service.

Recalls are extremely expensive. They aren't going to do a recall unless the problem is big enough that it's going to be more cost effective to do a recall or there is a safety issue. If BMW thinks that the number of repairs is large enough and they are losing reputation due to reliability issues (an intangible cost that hurts sales) they will do a recall. If not, they will not do anything other than pay for the warranty work.
As I stated, recall is not the issue...acknowledging the problem and suggesting a work-around or preventive action is..

Otherwise you will not just have "disgruntled customer" ..you will have ex-customers..

Question still stands: Why will BMW not acknowledge or discuss this problem?

My take is that it is more about corporate ego than money. BMW has been earning the reputation for failing to acknowledge their weaknesses and failures...that folks does not inspire much trust in the brand or the company.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:51 AM   #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
As I stated, recall is not the issue...acknowledging the problem and suggesting a work-around or preventive action is..

Otherwise you will not just have "disgruntled customer" ..you will have ex-customers..

Question still stands: Why will BMW not acknowledge or discuss this problem?

My take is that it is more about corporate ego than money. BMW has been earning the reputation for failing to acknowledge their weaknesses and failures...that folks does not inspire much trust in the brand or the company.
No, I didn't miss the point. Losing X customers is cheaper than a recall.

Why will BMW not acknowledge or discuss this problem? Because it's not a big enough problem.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:07 AM   #475
jpalamar
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Acknowledging the Problem...

Quote:As I stated, recall is not the issue...acknowledging the problem and suggesting a work-around or preventive action is...

The world is filled with lawyers and crazies that will sue at the drop of a hat. Acknowledging a problem a vexing [business] issue, especially in a litigious world where 33-50% [or more of a lawsuit] lawyers are lurking at every corner. If I were heading BMW right now, and fully expect to be nuked, I'd proceed exactly as they are proceeding. Folks (USA), we have to share a bit in the blame and the new sue every one for everything philosophy we have adopted. And, likely since the bike doesn't start the NHTSA won't even blink at this one as a recall. Tho', I'm no expert in this arena and someone will surely correct me.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:21 AM   #476
Wallowa
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Ugh! OK...So Be It...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylexot
No, I didn't miss the point. Losing X customers is cheaper than a recall.

Why will BMW not acknowledge or discuss this problem? Because it's not a big enough problem.
Like I said...I am not asking for or suggesting a recall...recall is not the issue..just like the % of failures is not the issue....customer service is the issue..

Your statement that the problem is not "big enough" is a chilling one and sadly perhaps accurate when it comes to BMWs business ethics...ignore "small problems", sell more bikes and too bad about the "few" stranded BMW riders resulting from an ignored/non-existent part failure...

Almost, but not really, funny: "immobilizers" that immobilizes BMW riders and not all those BMW thieves out there..but hey, you can carry a spare antenna..that is a very common practice...done all the time...
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:29 AM   #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
RB...

Ask them what exactly malfunctioned in the antenna [if they know], what caused it to malfunction and if they notified/sent it to BMW.

Love to hear the why along with the what...'old' medical thing: Mechanism of Injury, so you can treat problem and not symptom [windings are breaking due to overtightening VS "it won't start"]..

Let us know...thanks.

Me: So what was the problem?
SM: The antenna ring.
Me: what exactly happened?
SM: THE A-N-T-E-N-N-A R-I-N-G broke
Me: Well, what caused it?
SM: Don't know...these things just happen. We've seen a few of these. Hopefully the new part # will take care of it.
Me: So its a different part #?
SM: Yea
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:35 AM   #478
ylexot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
Like I said...I am not asking for or suggesting a recall...recall is not the issue..just like the % of failures is not the issue....customer service is the issue..

Your statement that the problem is not "big enough" is a chilling one and sadly perhaps accurate when it comes to BMWs business ethics...ignore "small problems", sell more bikes and too bad about the "few" stranded BMW riders resulting from an ignored/non-existent part failure...

Almost, but not really, funny: "immobilizers" that immobilizes BMW riders and not all those BMW thieves out there..but hey, you can carry a spare antenna..that is a very common practice...done all the time...
Ok, what would be gained by telling you that you have a small chance that your antenna ring will fail? Will that make you like BMW?
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:11 AM   #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ylexot
Ok, what would be gained by telling you that you have a small chance that your antenna ring will fail? Will that make you like BMW?
You delaers and Blind BMW supporters seem to be denying the MAJOR problems that exist right under your noses.

You know what I want? I want a list to come with my new vehicle, whether it be BMW or whatever manufacturer naming all parts that have ever failed on an identical model. Then I can plan accordingly and buy all the parts (and maybe a trailer to pull the parts behind me) so that I will never ever be stranded.

Are you guys so far upp BMW's butt that you can not see the validity in this action.




Oh yeah, just in case there is any doubt... sarcasm off.


BTW: My new antennea ring is delayed until Tuesday. Another weekend with no riding. Then the next weekend is my brothers wedding.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:14 AM   #480
Wallowa
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Eek Geez Bobby Do You Really Believe This Junk? Very Disingenuous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW Atlanta
Re-occurring by whose definition? What would you do if you sold 100 pencils and one of them had crappy britle lead? Would you try to contact all of the buyers and re-design the pencil because 99 of them worked like a champ? I am not defending BMW as much as I am pointing out the obvious cost vs benefit for the manufacturer and ultimately the consumer. Final drives have about 2-3 times the amount of failure, yet you're not raising a stink about that? WHY???? Ever researched the percentage of failure for the tires your riding on? Ever read the statistics on speeding and the results? Yet do you speed? So why should BMW have to publicly address such a small scale failure? A valve stem cracks and they have to send out a press release? Does that sound right? BMW when they see a problem fixes it, look at the TPM issue, they recalled it immediately because there was a potential for a slight leak on some spoked wheels with the first design. If there was such a smoking gun with the immobilizer antennae you can bet they would have nipped it in the ass quickly, but what we have so far is a very small number of non-specific geographically and model failures using the same part number antennae. If the problem grows in number you will see a TSB from BMW, if it's a really big problem the NHTSA will get involved. BMW warranty reps will not recommend immediate replacement of the antennae in the event of an EWS failure. Instead the dealer is to go through a labor intensive process of elimination to determine if indeed the antennae is at fault which BMW ultimately pays for. If the antennae proved to be an overly common issue, it would be in BMW's best interest to release a TSB stating to plug in a known good antennae and see if the problem still persists, but they don't. They'd rather have the dealers follow due process of inspecting the whole system rather then just the antennae which has been the more popular candidate. If you believe that the immobilizer needs to be addressed, start writing letters to NHTSA and BMW and see where that gets ya, posting in an internet forum will accomplish very little on your agenda.
Re-occurring by whose definition? Webster's; "Recurring...to occur again"..You know Bobby, it is not a one time thing...

I am not defending BMW as much as I am pointing out the obvious cost vs benefit for the manufacturer and ultimately the consumer.

What crap....cost vs benefit for who? BMW owners or BMW?

Final drives have about 2-3 times the amount of failure, yet you're not raising a stink about that? WHY????

Hey, BMW did finally put out an FD TSB...remember the BMW statement that you 'never have to change lube in FD' , oops, oh yes, 'do it at 600 mile service', oh yes, numerous dealers still didn't do that cuz they claim they never got the TSB.. The FD issue is notorious among BMW owners I have talked with...and they are still waiting to hear the "why". But Booby our topic is "immobilizers" and not FDs or TPMs..or pencils.

If there was such a smoking gun with the immobilizer antennae you can bet they would have nipped it in the ass quickly, but what we have so far is a very small number of non-specific geographically and model failures using the same part number antennae.

Kidding right? What is this 'smoking gun' verbiage? It is happening, no mystery, no smoking gun just fried ignitions, folks are getting stranded...'small number of non-specific geographically and model failures using the same part number antennae'...ahhhh, now use that 'smoking gun' terminology...duh ya think it might relate to that 'same part number antennae'? This first I have seen that there are different antenna part numbers; I guess I missed that BMW made a running change and are using different antennae now.

BMW warranty reps will not recommend immediate replacement of the antennae in the event of an EWS failure. Instead the dealer is to go through a labor intensive process of elimination to determine if indeed the antennae is at fault which BMW ultimately pays for.

What? "intensive process of elimination to determine if indeed the antennae is at fault"???? What exactly is this intensive process? First mention of that. And why no TSB? If there is an "intensive process", what information about this does the dealer receive from BMW? Where are the directives on how to do it?

Let me know when BMW or some after market company gives us a way to eliminate whatever the weakness is in the system and, no, carrying a spare antenna is not a solution, this suggestion is a limp home temporary fix and an acknowledgment that the system very likely can failure and leave you "immobilized".

I do truely give up on discussing this issue; it is just pissing in the wind...riders are getting stranded and it is not a big enough problem for BMW to address and I have yet to hear one dealer or BMW say "we have a problem and are trying to fix it"...what a disingenuous crock of shit.
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