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Old 09-01-2007, 10:57 AM   #91
mikerd400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike54
Oh please. You can pull anybody over for anything you want. I've been pulled over because the tail lights in my truck weren't red enough. I've been pulled over because my tail lights weren't working. They were working when I stepped to the back of the vehicle but the officer said they weren't when he pulled me over. I guess they healed themselves huh?
I've been pulled over because my front door windows appeared to be tinted. Stock windows and when the officer put his meter on them they were fine but he had to pull me over to check.

There's some ideas for I'm sure you can come up with more if you use your imagination.
I don't play that game. I do not make up reasons for a stop. Yes, some officers do. And, they will get fucked sometime. I too was once pulled over for no reason, he made up a BS reason. When he found out I was an LEO, he got scared. It was 2:30 am and he was just stopping me to see if I was DUI.

Many officers have made up reasons for a stop, and many officers have lost their jobs because of that. I won't lose my job for making a bogus stop. So, I make sure I have an actual violation to stop the car.
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:12 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer
Depends on the state. Here's the relevant section of code from my state (Maine):


I've never heard of anyone actually being cited, but it could happen...


I unnerstand, and believe me, I'm all about states' rights- but can you see how a visitor from out-of-state could get confused by all the conflicting Traffic Code in each state visited?
Yeah, I know, ignorance of the law is no excuse, yadda, yadda.
But, fer cripes' sake, barring the physical posting of traffic law at state lines, it could get quite complicated to "stay inside the lines"
Nevertheless, thanks for the feedback!


Oh, and as an afterthought- here there ARE signs on the freeway periodically, saying "Keep right except to pass" or words to that effect. So, in a sense, the code is written along the roadside....
Don't worry- everybody ignores 'em here, too!
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Old 09-01-2007, 11:15 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerd400
I don't play that game. I do not make up reasons for a stop. Yes, some officers do. And, they will get fucked sometime. I too was once pulled over for no reason, he made up a BS reason. When he found out I was an LEO, he got scared. It was 2:30 am and he was just stopping me to see if I was DUI. .
There's one of several reasons for general mistrust of LE.
I have had several occasions of "stopped without PC" but never pursued it.
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Old 09-01-2007, 12:59 PM   #94
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Eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer
There's one of several reasons for general mistrust of LE.
I have had several occasions of "stopped without PC" but never pursued it.
"General mistrust" or just your personal opinion you wish to make sound as if it's common? FWIW, if or when you get stopped "for no reason" go ahead and file a complaint for it. Stand up for yourself and make some noise. IF you really have a complaint have the huevos to "pursue" it. I know that there are unfit folks in the job and I've met them in person. I filed a complaint on one Fed in person.

No system employing people is perfect. Complaints are one of the ways that the system helps to weed out the ones who don't belong in the job. Until the way can be found to have a truly perfect system all you can do is deal with it. Unfortunately dealing with it does not mean just bitching on an anonymous forum but putting your signature on a piece of paper with your allegations. If you are in the right, make the complaint. If you are not in the right, be an adult about it.
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Old 09-01-2007, 01:40 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor31
"General mistrust" or just your personal opinion you wish to make sound as if it's common? FWIW, if or when you get stopped "for no reason" go ahead and file a complaint for it. Stand up for yourself and make some noise. IF you really have a complaint have the huevos to "pursue" it. I know that there are unfit folks in the job and I've met them in person. I filed a complaint on one Fed in person.

No system employing people is perfect. Complaints are one of the ways that the system helps to weed out the ones who don't belong in the job. Until the way can be found to have a truly perfect system all you can do is deal with it. Unfortunately dealing with it does not mean just bitching on an anonymous forum but putting your signature on a piece of paper with your allegations. If you are in the right, make the complaint. If you are not in the right, be an adult about it.
I could'nt have stated it better.

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Old 09-01-2007, 01:42 PM   #96
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Need a little humor???

Just to lighten things up . . . .

A man was speeding down the highway, feeling secure in a gaggle of cars all traveling at the same speed. However, as they passed a "speed trap," he got nailed with an infrared speed detector and was pulled over. The officer handed him the citation, received his signature and was about to walk away when the man asked, "Officer, I know I was speeding, but I don't think it's fair - there were plenty of other cars around me who were going just as fast, so why did *I* get the ticket?"

"Ever go fishing?" the policeman suddenly asked the man.

"Ummm, yeah..." the startled man replied.

The officer grinned and added, "Ever catch *all* the fish?"

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Old 09-01-2007, 06:22 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorfiveo
PC- That which would lead a reasonable person to belive a crime has or is taking place. Stopping a violator requires less proof, only Reasonable Suspicion. To arrest, you need PC.
Any further proof, and the police would not be able to arrest anyone.
Don't blame me, I didn't write the constitution.
constitution? i hope you're not using "reasonable suspicion" when you write tickets.

it may seem counterintuitive, but the level of proof needed to write a ticket (summons, citation, whatever) is HIGHER than that needed to arrest someone for a crime (misdemeanor, felony).

when an officer signs the bottom of the ticket, there is usually a line on the ticket that reads something like "I personally observed..."
the officer is swearing or affirming that he/she saw this person commit the violation, not that there is just reasonable suspicion or probable cause that the motorist was speeding or whatever. the officer is writing that the violation in fact occured, and the person getting the ticket in fact committed the violation.

if the person who gets the ticket wants to plead not guilty and get a hearing, the officer then has to present his/her case. the level of proof here is fairly low. at least in new york, the officer merely has to present "clear and convincing evidence" that this person committed the violation. but to write the ticket in the first place, the officer needed a very high level of proof. much higher than probable cause.
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Old 09-01-2007, 06:42 PM   #98
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Thanks to our LEO's

Great responses. I learned:
-most LEO's give 10+ on highways and 10- on local roads.
-reckless riding gets you pulled over at any speed.
-Flapping your mouth at the LEO is counter-productive.
-All that being said, if you go over the posted speed limit, you may get a ticket. LEO's perception of your riding may not be yours. Accept that not all LEO's follow a consistent guideline and ride accordingly.
But most importantly, ride safely.

Rick
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:31 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor31
"General mistrust" or just your personal opinion you wish to make sound as if it's common?
Nope- not alone in my opinion at all. It is widespread. If it doesn't give you warm fuzzies, oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor31
FWIW, if or when you get stopped "for no reason" go ahead and file a complaint for it. Stand up for yourself and make some noise. IF you really have a complaint have the huevos to "pursue" it.
Easy for you to say. I have found from sad personal experience that making a noise like that in your own home town will get you more trouble than it's worth. What? Big "IF" I win, not only is the rest of the dept layin' for me now cause I shit on their buddy, but who's gonna take his place? Someone better? They're already reviewing 200 apps to find one who passes the first filter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor31
Until the way can be found to have a truly perfect system all you can do is deal with it.
I'm dealin' with it quite well now, pooky. You're the one that's taken it all personal and got yer panties in a knot. I should add, thanks for that!
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:33 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idaho4me
I could'nt have stated it better.

Regards,

idaho4me
And I wuv you ,too, Dan!
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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:06 PM   #101
Moto One
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The California Highway Patrol hiring.
Great pay, Even better Retirment (3% @ 50), and your very own Seven Point protection plan.

If you think officers are picking on you, join them, and try out the job, you my be suprised, you eather like it, or move one with a bit more respect for the job.

Yellow signs are advisory, White signs are law. Slower traffice Move to the right (white sign). Having some one (even going the limit) when the flow is moving 10+, is at risk of causing other drivers to make unsafe lane changes.

How many time when rolling code 2 or 3 have you said to your self as you pass some driver in the number 1 (going the limit) and will not move right or had not scanned their rearview in the past 20 min, to push the right, long peddel?
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:09 PM   #102
Moto One
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Moto One]The California Highway Patrol hiring.
Great pay, Even better Retirment (3% @ 50), and your very own Seven Point protection plan.

If you think officers are picking on you, join them, and try out the job, you my be suprised, you eather like it, or move one with a bit more respect for the job.

Yellow signs are advisory, White signs are law. Slower traffice Move to the right (white sign). Having some one (even going the limit) when the flow is moving 10+, is at risk of causing other drivers to make unsafe lane changes.

How many time when rolling code 2 or 3 have you said to your self as you pass some driver in the number 1 (going the limit) on the right when they will not move right, or they are not paying any attation, and had not scanned their rearview in the past 20 min, or just said to your self, would you just push the right, long peddel?
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:35 PM   #103
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Greetings urbancowboy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancowboy
constitution? i hope you're not using "reasonable suspicion" when you write tickets.

Why is that? In order for an investigative stop or detention to be valid, you must have "reasonable suspicion" that: (1) criminal activity may be afoot; and (2) the person you are about to detain is connected with the possible criminal activity. Source: (Sokolow (1989) 490 U.S. 1, 7-8; Ross (1990) 217 Cal App. 3d 879, 884; Johnson (1991) 231 CAl App. 3rd 1, 10; Limon (1993) 17 Cal. App. 4th 524, 532.)


The court will consider the "totality of the circumstances," one must have specific facts which one can articulate to a court. The court will then decide if these facts together with ones training and experience were enough to make ones suspicion objectively reasonable.

One cannot make a valid detention based on a hunch, rumor, intuition, instinct or curiosity. However, for "reasonable suspicion," both the quality and quantity of the information one has to arrest and search. However, for "reasonable suspicion," both the quality and quality of the information one needs is considerably less than what one needs for "probable cause" to arrest or search.

"Probable cause" always boils down to this question: Does a LEO possess enough factual knowledge or other reliable information so that it is reasonable for him/her, in light of his/her training and experience, to believe that the individual committed a crime whether it is a misdemeanor or felony. If the answer is yes, the arrest or citation can take place.


it may seem counterintuitive, but the level of proof needed to write a ticket (summons, citation, whatever) is HIGHER than that needed to arrest someone for a crime (misdemeanor, felony).

Really? Where did you get this information? I've never heard of this. Please state your source. In order to write a citation/summons, all one needs is "probable cause." The standard is no "higher" or lower than the probable cause to arrest, it is the same.

when an officer signs the bottom of the ticket, there is usually a line on the ticket that reads something like "I personally observed..."
the officer is swearing or affirming that he/she saw this person commit the violation, not that there is just reasonable suspicion or probable cause that the motorist was speeding or whatever. the officer is writing that the violation in fact occured, and the person getting the ticket in fact committed the violation.

I’m not a New York LEO, however, I think you'd better confirm this. This does not sound correct. Usually states something like “I hereby certify service upon the defendant personally on . . . “ or some such verbiage.

if the person who gets the ticket wants to plead not guilty and get a hearing, the officer then has to present his/her case. the level of proof here is fairly low. at least in new york, the officer merely has to present "clear and convincing evidence" that this person committed the violation. but to write the ticket in the first place, the officer needed a very high level of proof. much higher than probable cause.
I believe the correct term should be “beyond a reasonable dought.”



Regards
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Old 09-01-2007, 08:48 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer
And I wuv you ,too, Dan!
Ahhh Hammer,

How sweet of you to say so. I get all warm and fuzzy when you talk to me like that.



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Old 09-01-2007, 09:05 PM   #105
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"Why is that? In order for an investigative stop or detention to be valid, you must have "reasonable suspicion" that: (1) criminal activity may be afoot; and (2) the person you are about to detain is connected with the possible criminal activity. Source: (Sokolow (1989) 490 U.S. 1, 7-8; Ross (1990) 217 Cal App. 3d 879, 884; Johnson (1991) 231 CAl App. 3rd 1, 10; Limon (1993) 17 Cal. App. 4th 524, 532.)"

great. except we're not talking about investigative stops. we're talking about tickets. the officer isn't SUSPECTING the motorist of breaking a law. the officer is writing that the motorist in fact broke whatever traffic code is being enforced.

its amazing to me that several LEOs have mentioned probable cause when talking about writing tickets. when you go to traffic court do you tell the judge 1. that you suspect that the motorist was speeding? 2. you have probable cause that the motorist was speeding?
OR
3. are you testifying that you saw the person speeding?
if your answer is 1 or 2, you don't have sufficient proof to write the ticket.

i'll give an example of the varying levels of proof needed to take police action.
if you are sitting in a patrol car and a stranger pulls up next to you and saws: "the car ahead of me just went through a red light two blocks back" do you pull over the indicated car and write the driver a ticket for going through a red light?
of course not.
now lets say you're sitting in that patrol car and a stranger runs up and says: "that guy just grabbed my wallet" while pointing at someone walking the other way.
here is your probable cause to make an arrest.
in both cases you have probable cause. get it?
in almost all cases, you need to observe the violation in order to write a traffic ticket. that's a lot more than probable cause.
sorry about the different font.
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