ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > The perfect line and other riding myths
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-12-2007, 09:00 AM   #61
DR. Rock
Part of the problem
 
DR. Rock's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: NYfC, yff
Oddometer: 5,528
I think the real potential downside is that the changes to your riding style are subtle and largely subconscious. If you don't believe me, ride around the block with no gear and see for yourself how cautiously you ride. Most people definitely ride differently with gear on, and I would venture to say that no one rides the same with gear as they would without. So the question isn't "does the gear cause you to ride in a riskier manner?", but rather "how much?".

Again, I'm not arguing against wearing gear, just trying to point out some of the perhaps not so obvious psychology underneath.
__________________
"I came into this game for the action, the excitement; go anywhere, travel light... get in, get out... wherever there's trouble, a man alone... Now they got the whole country sectioned off; you can't make a move without a form." --Robert De Niro as Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle in Brazil, 1985. The Mobius Trip index | Spot tracking live 4/18-5/4/13 | AdventureLoft™ Tent Space
DR. Rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 09:26 AM   #62
RobH
Don't tase me bro
 
RobH's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Oddometer: 5,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charis
But I keep reading Face plant reports where the rider has apparently (I recognize the difficulty of communicating in this medium) made a significant error and been involved in what was very likely an avoidable accident. Often those folks are very proud of the fact they were ATGATT but gloss over their responsibility in the wreck which IMO is much more important.

Is it possible we're worried too much about dressing properly and not enough on riding properly?
I think you may be on to something but it is probably more likely that alot of these crashing folk just can't ride very well and / or are reckless. There's also a sense of inevitability that is promoted here and on other motorcycle forums: "you will crash, it is just a matter of when". People then present their own examples of multiple crashes to prove this belief. I don't know about everyone else, but the last person I want to take advice from is someone who has crashed many times. While there are accidents caused by other riders and cages that can't always be avoided, there is no inevitability that one must crash because of one's own fault or that problems caused by others can't be avoided. When I was younger and riding my dirt bikes with friends, I crashed all the time. It was almost always my fault for doing something risky and foolish. Going on asphault where the consequences are so much greater should make us all much more careful and eager to minimize risk.
__________________
2011 Triumph Sprint GT, 2011 Yamaha FZ8 (sold), 2006 BMW F650GS (sold); 2000 KTM LC4 640-e (sold)
RobH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2007, 10:52 PM   #63
Strombow
Adventurer
 
Strombow's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Saudi Arabia/ Bolton England
Oddometer: 12
I think you are right.
Used to race Motocross and inevitably crashed, broke my ankles and my wrist, smashed my chin on the bars and squashed my gonads. I had all the Motocross protective gear and the dirt still broke me.
I have all the protective gear for the road but I don't race and have not crashed, the only times I have come close is when I have misread an unfamiliar road.
Another problem can be too familiar with the road around where you live when you might have other things on your mind.

Cheers
Ian
Strombow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 07:02 AM   #64
ThePikeman
German n00b
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Berlin
Oddometer: 4,603
That's a great thread. ATGATT... oh well sometimes convenience reigns... also called stupidy. I sometimes don't wear pants, though only when in the city where the max speed is about 43 mph (that's my limit for the city, law would be 31 mph).
Yesterday I was running late for a nice movie, so I put the r12r on Street Fighter mode (Esa) and drove the 8 miles to the city center as hell. I also did only wear jeans (and jacket, helmet, boots, gloves). Man, I did feel unsafe.

I like feeling safe when I do sit on a mc. This way I can concentrate more on my riding.

If I ride more risky or faster more depends more on my mood for just cruising along having fun or doing a bit more aggressive riding than on my gear. (Full gear mostly anyways)

I do have two suits though to cope with the weather. One BMW suit with gore tex in it to keep me warm and dry and another one (Savanna) without gore tex and more holes to open in it than a swiss cheese.
Just washed one... the water looked quite disgusting... So I still have to admit that heat-thing.

I have to admit, it takes more time to put on the gear than just taking a car, but that's the deal of motorcycling. A car is easy, fast and safe to use but not real fun. A bike is fun, but not as easy in use and definitely not as safe, especially without gear.
Commuting makes getting ready to ride quite fast though. Takes about two minutes if I am in a hurry.

just my 2 cents
ThePikeman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 08:45 AM   #65
KaribKLR
Adventurer
 
KaribKLR's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
Oddometer: 44
2 drawbacks

1. Too hot. Even with full mesh jacket and gloves, and vented helmet, riding with full gear here in the Caribbean takes comittment (and fear of leaving flesh on the pavement).
2. Much too hot. When getting ready to leave a short errand stop, standing in the full tropical sun while getting all the gear on is almost unbearable. Especially when all you wanted to do was get back up to 50mph to create a cooling breeze.

All that said, I don't ride without it, hot or not.
KaribKLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2007, 08:55 PM   #66
bimmerx2
Studly Adventurer
 
bimmerx2's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: DFW area of Texas
Oddometer: 982
I agree, and that leads to a thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DR. Rock
I think the real potential downside is that the changes to your riding style are subtle and largely subconscious. If you don't believe me, ride around the block with no gear and see for yourself how cautiously you ride. Most people definitely ride differently with gear on, and I would venture to say that no one rides the same with gear as they would without. So the question isn't "does the gear cause you to ride in a riskier manner?", but rather "how much?".

Again, I'm not arguing against wearing gear, just trying to point out some of the perhaps not so obvious psychology underneath.
I think you're right on in your evaluation.

Your comment on riding around the block without gear brought up a thought that is sort of sideways to the original intent of the thread. In an earlier post I half rhetorically asked if riding more 'cautious' was always a good thing. One thing we all learn over time is that when on the bike we have to take control of the situation for maximum safety and sometimes that means getting downright agressive with the right hand. I think for the already somewhat timid rider it can make you "less safe" to ride even more cautious. I've substituted the word timid here for cautious because I think it's really hard to separate the two when you're talking about the effect of riding without gear.
__________________
Bimmerx2
'06 BMW 1200 GS (sold )
'12 BMW K1600GTL
'08 Honda CBR 1000RR (get outta da way!)
'05 Honda CBR 600RR (trackday toy)
bimmerx2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:01 AM   #67
dgmeister
Gnarly Adventurer
 
dgmeister's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: TASSY
Oddometer: 112
its too hot to wear my gear today (sarcasm)
dgmeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 12:07 PM   #68
pennswoodsed
lizards,bugs and me
 
pennswoodsed's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Reading,Pa
Oddometer: 668
ah statistics !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rentaman
ATGATT............never heard of it til I hit this site.
Crashed hard over 20 years ago with no helmet. Lost a little hair there, where my noggin was scrapin the pavement. 75' skid marks, 5 sheriff cars, 5 ambulances. I rode home." surviving an accident without a helmet, but I can use the crash as an example of surviving an accident due to drunkeness."

If no helmet law and a familiar or stress free area, I ride without, but if I don't know the area the skid lid stays on.
Hmmm......most accidents happen at 20 mph or less- helmets are designed for up to a 14 mph impact.

Sneakers are ok, but if it is not blisteringly hot out, I wear engineer boots.

where is this persons thoughts now ,3 years later ?
pennswoodsed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 04:57 PM   #69
GSXF
Gnarly Adventurer
 
GSXF's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: NY
Oddometer: 190
ATGATT is simply Sexy! Not mentioning leather are better chick magnet than T-shirt.
__________________
"You can make more friends in two months by becoming interested in other people than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you."
GSXF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 07:36 PM   #70
Kommando
Grumpy Young Man
 
Kommando's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Spacecoaster FL
Oddometer: 6,444
For some, putting on gear can be a sort of reminder/psyche-up to ride aware. You're not in your safe, enclosed cage anymore.
Kommando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 11:47 AM   #71
Motodisiac
Moto Terrorist
 
Motodisiac's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: City Of Angels
Oddometer: 3,461
To me, AGATT has two big downsides -

1. When AGATT, I ride more aggressive. It gives me a feeling of invincibility
2. When AGATT, I can't really go anywhere without looking like a dork. Even going to grocery store is a challenge if you are fashionable man. I do it anyways but do not like the attention.
__________________
Beach Moto - my baby and your connection for quality motorcycle gear
Rev'it Gear for ADV Riders - the thread that started it all

Ducati Multistrada 1200 S - Adventure, Commuting, Track, Fun
CRF450X - Dirt Toy
Motodisiac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 12:55 PM   #72
Drilldogger
Studly Adventurer
 
Drilldogger's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: between the Smoke & Muskoka
Oddometer: 531
Been riding 10 years on the road, and new to off road. I don't believe that every motorcyclist has to crash at least once (referring to road riding). There are a lot of experienced riders that haven't gone down. I believe experience, practice and riding skills are far more important than the gear. I also believe that we should ride as if every cage is out to get us. I also believe that we can't guarantee we won't go down. But how often when someone has crashed, could it have been prevented by slowing down before that blind corner, or preparing for that parked car to pull out. Maybe the rider would have seen the gravel in the corner or that the car with the broken signal was about to pull out.
I wear a full face helmet, gloves, boots, leather jacket, as a minimum. After joining this site I purchased a pressure suit for dual sporting, and next are some riding pants and knee pads.
I won't wear everything when going to work or to the store, only on joyrides. We need to be careful out there, but it doesn't help to live in constant fear.
Drilldogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 01:42 PM   #73
Wuwei
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: New York
Oddometer: 1,108
Wasn't there just a study released indicating that in states with helmet laws there is no decrease in overall fatalities? I've read the same thing with regard to skiing helmets. Apparently, us humans ratchet up the riding or skiing when wearing helmets, so they don't really save us. When I was a kid and it was a really hot night my dad would take me out riding on his mc to cool off. We wore helmets, but only shorts and t-shirts. Never thought anything of it. When I started riding ATGATT was just hiking boots, jeans, an open-face helmet, and some old work gloves. You might have seen an occasional leather jacket, but certainly nothing with any armor. Nobody thought anything of it. Cars didn't have air bags or even seat belts. We weren't scared. Safety is 95% how you drive, and 5% luck.
__________________
For my part, I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's sake. The great affair is to move. Robert Louis Stevenson
Wuwei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 01:51 PM   #74
Bonebag
ADDvrider
 
Bonebag's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin..Hot,Cold and everything in Between
Oddometer: 5,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
Apparently, us humans ratchet up the riding or skiing when wearing helmets, so they don't really save us.
I agree with the ratcheting up when we're wearing the gear..and that does lead into some sticky situations when putting the hammer down and testing the limits..but the gear is there also when the old fugger whips into you or the greasy road sends you slapping..so the gear does save us..it may also cause you to test it more I'm not so confident in the statistics..the news crews aren't out looking for happy stories..and some of those people who come up with the statistics are damn maniacal little demons.
Bonebag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 02:06 PM   #75
markk53
jack of all trades...
 
markk53's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Delaware Ohio
Oddometer: 7,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuthorEditor
Wasn't there just a study released indicating that in states with helmet laws there is no decrease in overall fatalities? I've read the same thing with regard to skiing helmets. Apparently, us humans ratchet up the riding or skiing when wearing helmets, so they don't really save us. When I was a kid and it was a really hot night my dad would take me out riding on his mc to cool off. We wore helmets, but only shorts and t-shirts. Never thought anything of it. When I started riding ATGATT was just hiking boots, jeans, an open-face helmet, and some old work gloves. You might have seen an occasional leather jacket, but certainly nothing with any armor. Nobody thought anything of it. Cars didn't have air bags or even seat belts. We weren't scared. Safety is 95% how you drive, and 5% luck.
Most studies are done within a year or so and there's no statistical relevance. There has to be long term statistical analysis to eliminate process variation. That's why there really isn't any predictability from one year to the next with any accuracy, what will happen. Maybe the helmets do make a difference, maybe they don't... but a single year used as an example is far from realistic.

By the way, did you ever see what happened to people in crashes before seat belts and air bags? Even a minimal crash that now wouldn't be any big deal, could result in severe facial or head injuries when the driver/passenger hit the steering wheel/dash board/windshield without any restraint. I guarantee there are far less disfiguring injuries over all since the implementation of seat belt laws, among those wearing seat belts versus before them (those not wearing belts after the laws aren't applicable statistics). And it seems most fatal high speed accidents have drivers/passengers without belts on... kind of leaves the no fear thing out in the cold.
__________________
Ever get lost? You know, that good kind of lost - come to a dirt road intersection and you have no idea where you are or which way to turn? I like when that happens!

Mark - klx678
95 KLX650C w/Vulcan piston bigbore, Now an 09 KLX250S, selling my 90 Zephyr 550
markk53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 03:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014