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Old 02-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #451
GSWayne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Are threads being used as the primary ground path? Instead of a flat contact area held clamped together with the fasteners I mean.
There would be redundant paths, via the screw threads to the top of the PWB and via the spacer to the bottom of the PWB. Though Loctite is nonconductive I would think it would only be in gaps where there is not conductive path anyway. The conductive path would always be in the metal to metal contact and the two pieces of metal would force the liquid out of that area. If there is evidence that the Loctite would prevent the metal to metal connection I would be interested in hearing about that.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:55 AM   #452
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSWayne View Post
There would be redundant paths, via the screw threads to the top of the PWB and via the spacer to the bottom of the PWB. Though Loctite is nonconductive I would think it would only be in gaps where there is not conductive path anyway. The conductive path would always be in the metal to metal contact and the two pieces of metal would force the liquid out of that area. If there is evidence that the Loctite would prevent the metal to metal connection I would be interested in hearing about that.
The threadlocker displaces the air and cures to a thermoset plastic. On average, there's about 70% airspace between male and female threads in standard pitch threads. It's the airspace we're filling which prevents galvanic corrosion, loosening from vibration, loosening from thermocycling, and loosening as a result of electrical current (pulses) passing through threaded components.

The product only goes where there's an airgap. It does not prevent metal to metal contact which is needed for electrical transmission.

Dirty
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:06 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by GSWayne View Post

There would be redundant paths, via the screw threads to the top of the PWB, and via the spacer to the bottom of the PWB.
Threads are not even close to a reliable ground path. Especially with low voltage, if that's what you're using. There's as little as a turn and a half of threads in contact, and it's usually a line contact. The clamped board contact area to the standoff (spacer) is a good low-ohm electrical path.


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Old 02-18-2012, 07:36 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Threads are not even close to a reliable ground path. Especially with low voltage, if that's what you're using. There's as little as a turn and a half of threads in contact, and it's usually a line contact. The clamped board contact area to the standoff (spacer) is a good low-ohm electrical path.

That makes sense, I will keep that in mind. I always assumed the high contact forces in the thread engagement area, made for a good connection, but the area must be so small, that combined with the relatively low conductivity of stainless steel, might make that a higher resistance connection.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:46 AM   #455
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If you apply it today, let it sit until April.

I probably wouldn't wait, but if you're a belt and suspenders sort of cat, let it sit overnight and you'd be more than OK.

Dirty
Well, it did't work very well, not at all actually. Letting it sit overnight and redoing it and putting a hair dryer on it for a couple of hours. No notible increase in torque. Time to buy a fresh tube. Maybe that will work better. Not sure how long I have had it, probably a year or two.

I know what the data sheet says, but in the real world when should I throw it away and buy fresh.

KP
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:28 AM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khpossum View Post
Well, it did't work very well, not at all actually. Letting it sit overnight and redoing it and putting a hair dryer on it for a couple of hours. No notible increase in torque. Time to buy a fresh tube. Maybe that will work better. Not sure how long I have had it, probably a year or two.

I know what the data sheet says, but in the real world when should I throw it away and buy fresh.

KP
Try covering the part with a blanket and put a small shop light under the part to heat it up a skosh, OR get a can of 7649 PrimerN.

We all learn something every day.

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Old 02-20-2012, 04:13 PM   #457
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OK, quick and dirty question as a gasketing job nears this very weekend: resealing a KTM LC4 top end.

Engine was completely overahuled inc. new cylinder and all gaskets. I want to be 100% there will be no leaks in the near future ;)

I have a 250 ml tube of Loctite 510 which I’m very fond of and a small bottle of trusted Loctite 243. What do I need more? And of course there is also a bottle of 648 for water pump rebuild.

Let’s start at the cylinder base gasket, and working up to the rocker inspection covers here are my questions.

Questions:
- cylinder base gasket near chain tunnel - is a 510 suitable for the job?
- cylinder head gasket I will just leave as it is with gasket only - how about those studs and bolts - should I Loctite them?
- I know the extinctive discussion about the rocker cover re-sealing but I want to keep it simple - is a 510 suitable or should I go for 5188 or 518? Or maybe a simple 5920 will do?
- how about other small sealing applications in the top end: exhaust ports and bolts?
- valve inspection covers - sure I’ve read about the flatening the flange and using 510 on them - will be done
- other covers - magneto cover and that freakin’ cables sticking out of it have given me hard time before - 3x times resealing didn’t help ;/ - the last leak was through the cables themself - I will cut it clean and resolder new ones starting from the inside - the manual says to use silicon on the cover/gasket and on rubber cable openings - what will be a recommended product here?
- other nuts and bolts in the area? should I go a little paranoid about them and just 243 all of them? ;)

Could You elaborate a little bit on that?

Cheers

Alex
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:25 PM   #458
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Alex- You have exactly the products you need.

CLEAN and Degreased is what we want to start with...so keep this in mind. The cleaner the better-even the nuts and bolts.

You said the cylinder/jug has been removed, so let's start from here.

In order to give you a feel for just how much various diameter beads of 510 flatten out, draw out a few different bead sizes onto a piece of paper and fold it in half. Flatten out the bead that has been sandwiched in between the paper and hold it up to the light so you can see just how wide the bead can get. Once you get this dialed in to suit the width of the base and head gasket, proceed.

The cool thing about using anaerobic gasket eliminators is that you won't be rushed during reassembly because the product will not begin to cure until you mate your parts. So time is on your side. Work methodically and carefully

I have only removed the head of my 640, so I don't know about the studs that hold the jug to the case. But remember for blind holes..holes that have a bottom to them, you apply threadlocker down the side of the female threads. For normal through holes, the threadlocker is applied to the male threads. Thread studs into blind holes slowly in order for the threadlocker to squeezeout from the hole. Threading a stud into a blind hole too quickly can easily crack a case due to the hydraulic pressure created by the threadlocker. Normally, a small dribble is adequate.

Draw an appropriately thin 1 to 2mm bead on the case-be mindful of this because we want to avoid as much squeezeout into the engine as possible. Then draw the other bead on the bottom of the jug. I usually use a thin brush to flatten out the bead.

Install the base gasket in it's position , then fit the jug onto the case. Tighten the jug to spec.

Do the same thing for the head gasket. Tighten to spec.

Pressing out the shaft on the waterpump was a pain when I last did mine. You'll need a press or a beefy vise to get the shaft out of the housing. 648 is applied to the two shaft bearings, as well as the OD of the seals believe it or not. For pressing the bearings off of the shaft, and for pressing the mounted bearings back into the waterpump housing, heat the housing up to 200F to expand, and freeze overnight the mounted bearings/shaft. Expand one part, shrink the other. It makes reassembly pretty easy.

Fit your cam, be mindful of the spring clips on the cam gear-these have to be fit perfectly-otherwise they'll snap. 243 on the cam bolt and torque to spec.

Seal up the exhaust manifold stud that goes all the way through with -you'll see it. 510 should be used here as a threadlocker and on the rest of the exhaust flange studs since it'll stand up to the heat 400F moreso than 243. It's the stud on the left exhaust port. These engines are famous for leaking at this location.

Replace the rocker arm O-Rings. These things push right out.

Make sure to shim the rocker arms properly to control the side to side movement. Order a few shims.

Draw a thin bead on the top of the head once the water pump has been fitted and the rocker arms have been shimmed. Torque to spec using 243.

The last thing is to set your valves-0.006" Exhaust and Intake.

Make note of the small lip on the valve inspection covers. Sand these off by lapping them on with a light oil on wet/dry 220 grit sandpaper placed on a piece of glass. Clean and degrease these things.

Apply a thin bead on the mating surface of either the valve inspection port OR the valve inspection covers. Apply 243 on the threads that hold the inspection covers in place. No need to use the green cut gasket here. 510 is a better alternative.

Now go around and wipe off any squeezeout you see. It'll attract dust if you don't.

You can go ahead with the engine oil at this point, but let everything sit overnight before firing her up.

I did my engine like this....with 510, 243, wherever appropriate and lapping the inspection covers, filling the hole on the exhaust port, and my engine doesn't leak a drop. Not even any dust accumulates from oil weeps because I don't even have any weeps.

You Dig?

Dirty
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:04 PM   #459
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Dirty,

thanks very much for the info and encouragement. Some things remain unclear:

- heating the water pump body - hot/boiling water is enough? I would be worried about the seal with a propane torch or similar.
- flatening the bead - is a finger or „credit card” enough?
- pressing out was not a problem - I sprayed few times a WD40 for a day or two, let it seat, then placed some kind of wooden scrap and use some sockets to blow the seal/bearings package out ot the pump body with a few good smacks with a 300g hammer, piece of cake. Let’s see how will it work the other way around - but with the freeze/warm method shouldn’t be a problem, though.
- the stud on the left exhaust - I’m going to install a small screw in there per Tseta method,
- I’ve already lapped the valve cover per your recomendaton - tried it out just to see how will they clamp together and how much force is required to remove them for futher inspections - any tips how to remove the old 510 fast and without scratching the mating surface to much?
- how about the cable rubber I was talking about? What should I use there?
- wipe out the squeeze out… sponge or rag? ;)

Thanks again. I hope this questions will help someone else too.

PS. I saw you on the Anders’ video - nice to see you in person ;)
I though to myself - this could be the old Dirty (excuse me the word old) himself - and voila! that was you ;) ADV world is small.

PPS. I miss the usual disclaimer ;)

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Old 02-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #460
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Alik- more engine talk later this eve, but I heard Anders of the Andersaroundtheworld on the Youtube channel couldn't find a suitable rear tire during a visit to New Orleans, but a friend who runs the local Cycle Gear heard of his dillema and overnight ordered the tire Anders wanted. He left New Orleans, rode to my town (about an hour away) and I met Anders, and hung out awhile with him, and welded a larger side stand pad for him, and he was off again, headed to the Mexican boarder.

Anders-a cool guy to have met for sure.

Dirty
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:49 PM   #461
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Tappet cover and 2T case sealants?

Just spent too much time with WD-40 and a trimmed chip brush getting all the oily northern Michigan farm field dust off the head of my TE610 in preparation for a valve check. I bought new OE gaskets for the tappet covers, but since the ones in the bike are OE with only break-in miles on them, I figure there's probably a better technology out there.

Yamaha sells "Loctite® S518 Gasket Maker™".

They also list "Yamabond® 1386: An anaerobic sealer called for use on 4-stroke camshaft caps". This is specifically sold for exactly what I'm looking to use it for. Can't find anything linking it to Loctite, or any other information using the google except Yamaha parts listings.

Also found Loctite 548, which is in convenient stick form and may be less expensive in the minimum purchase amount than 510 or 518.

Any advice?


I'm also going to be splitting the cases on my YZ250 soon. Manual says to use Yamaha bond No. 1215.

Yamaha currently lists:
Yamabond® 4 Motorsports:A silicone-based liquid gasket that fills gaps on a flange surfaces, when cured (sets in 60 minutes), this product forms a rubber-like gasket that resists high temperatures and seals joints, gear- and engine-oil resistant. Use where the service manual specifies "Threebond 1215".

Does Loctite have anything you'd recommend over Yamabond 4 for sticking the cases of a two-stroke back together? If so, how and why is it better?

Thanks, great thread. I powered through the whole thing tonight.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:06 AM   #462
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Suggestions in the order you asked them:

The water pump body. Heating the housing in hot water will make it expand ever so slightly which will make fitting/pressing new seal and pressing in the new shaft and two bearings a bit easier. Cooling/freezing the bearings is ideal.

Remember, you have two seperate fits which may require heating/cooling. The bearings onto the waterpump shaft, then you'll have to fit the bearings into the waterpump housing.

I wouldn't use a finger to flatten the bead. at most hardware or hobby stores get 100 pack of the small inexpensive brushes. These work best for flattening out the bead of Gasket Eliminator.

How to remove the old 510 Gasket Eliminator. Scrape it off with a wooden stick, or use an aircraft gasket remover. Here in the States this stuff contains methylene chloride. It eats anaerobic gaskets along with skin, paint, etc. If you use this stuff, spray it on a piece of foil and carefully paint it onto gasketed surfaces you wish to remove the gasket from. Be careful because it'll also remove the paint from the engine.

An old shop rag is perfect for removing any squeezeout.

I'm not sure about the cable rubber you mentioned. You lost me.

Dirty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alik View Post
Dirty,

thanks very much for the info and encouragement. Some things remain unclear:

- heating the water pump body - hot/boiling water is enough? I would be worried about the seal with a propane torch or similar.
- flatening the bead - is a finger or „credit card” enough?
- pressing out was not a problem - I sprayed few times a WD40 for a day or two, let it seat, then placed some kind of wooden scrap and use some sockets to blow the seal/bearings package out ot the pump body with a few good smacks with a 300g hammer, piece of cake. Let’s see how will it work the other way around - but with the freeze/warm method shouldn’t be a problem, though.
- the stud on the left exhaust - I’m going to install a small screw in there per Tseta method,
- I’ve already lapped the valve cover per your recomendaton - tried it out just to see how will they clamp together and how much force is required to remove them for futher inspections - any tips how to remove the old 510 fast and without scratching the mating surface to much?
- how about the cable rubber I was talking about? What should I use there?
- wipe out the squeeze out… sponge or rag? ;)

Thanks again. I hope this questions will help someone else too.

PS. I saw you on the Anders’ video - nice to see you in person ;)
I though to myself - this could be the old Dirty (excuse me the word old) himself - and voila! that was you ;) ADV world is small.

PPS. I miss the usual disclaimer ;)
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:28 AM   #463
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Automobile mfg's caught on to leaky cut gaskets like those still found on motorcycle engines back in the early 70's. Only the car mfg's. stopped using cut gaskets because most all of them take a compression set and begin to leak. Husky, KTM, Honda, Yamaha, etc,, etc., must not have gotten the memo though.

The OE's use the cheapest gaskets their purchasing dept. can find, and as I mentioned the valve tappet cover gaskets have taken a compression set, leak, and collect an insane amount of dust.

Take the covers off and lap them to ensure and confirm flatness, and especially if there's a ridge on the mating side of the covers like I did to the inspection covers on my KTM. Increase the amount of mating surface of that gasket if at all possible.

Naturally I'd suggest a Loctite product, but just shy away from any and all gasket products that are solvent based since they begin to cure as soon as the product is applied. The race is on for engine reassembly anytime a solvent based gasket sealing product is used.

Anaerobic products are your friends here....they only begin to cure when the parts are mated. No rush for reassembly.

As to the case gasket, I'd still use it. Only dress the gasket on both sides with something like 548 or the like. See, what we're trying to do is to bond the two parts and fill in all miniscule scratches/voids, etc. which may result in a leak path for the oil to snake through.

I've built nearly 3 dozen old Vespa engines and I never used their cut gasket set. The internal tolerances for the case halfs were loose enough that a bead of 518 on the gasketed surface without using their OEM engine case gasket worked perfectly.

On your engine, that case gasket might also serve as a shim to maintain an internal clearance in order to keep something from binding.

For this reason, put 518 on the mating surface of both case halfs, OR put 518 or any of the other anaerobic products on both sides of the case gasket.

Don't use the silicone gasket maker in rigid gasketed applications.

Dirty


Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
Just spent too much time with WD-40 and a trimmed chip brush getting all the oily northern Michigan farm field dust off the head of my TE610 in preparation for a valve check. I bought new OE gaskets for the tappet covers, but since the ones in the bike are OE with only break-in miles on them, and they're doing such a piss-poor job of it, I figure there's probably a better technology out there.

Yamaha sells "Loctite® S518 Gasket Maker™".

They also list "Yamabond® 1386: An anaerobic sealer called for use on 4-stroke camshaft caps". This is specifically sold for exactly what I'm looking to use it for. Can't find anything linking it to Loctite, or any other information using the google except Yamaha parts listings.

Also found Loctite 548, which is in convenient stick form and may be less expensive in the minimum purchase amount than 510 or 518.

Any advice?


I'm also going to be splitting the cases on my YZ250 soon. Manual says to use Yamaha bond No. 1215.

Yamaha currently lists:
Yamabond® 4 Motorsports:A silicone-based liquid gasket that fills gaps on a flange surfaces, when cured (sets in 60 minutes), this product forms a rubber-like gasket that resists high temperatures and seals joints, gear- and engine-oil resistant. Use where the service manual specifies "Threebond 1215".

Does Loctite have anything you'd recommend over Yamabond 4 for sticking the cases of a two-stroke back together? If so, how and why is it better?

Thanks, great thread. I powered through the whole thing tonight.
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Old 02-27-2012, 07:44 AM   #464
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Anodized surface

Does an anodized aluminum surface (Type 2 on 6061 or Type 3 on 7075) have enough activity to work with Loctite? Is there any Loctite (ideally, red) that will work directly? Is there a primer that will make it work better? If the fastener is 3XX stainless, primer is required, right?
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:14 AM   #465
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In theory, yes, you'd need an anaerobic primer on non-ferrous/non-active metals (metals that don't rust, tarnish, corrode, or hold a magnet), but....if you can let the mated parts sit undisturbed for 24 hours, you'll be ace in the hole.

When I do training, we use glass slides held flat against each other to show how wicking grade threadlockers and slides to demonstrate just how large even a small thin bead of Gasket Eliminators work. Within 20 minutes the slides stick together if we don't separate them. And the last I checked, glass doesn't rust, tarnish, corrode, or hold a magnet.

Clear as mud to you?

Dirty



Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
Does an anodized aluminum surface (Type 2 on 6061 or Type 3 on 7075) have enough activity to work with Loctite? Is there any Loctite (ideally, red) that will work directly? Is there a primer that will make it work better? If the fastener is 3XX stainless, primer is required, right?
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