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Old 02-22-2013, 07:35 PM   #1816
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Originally Posted by nachtflug View Post
depends on your definition of "they did"...

Plenty of room for a leg. It's not like the rider had to put his feet down at stop lights.
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:14 AM   #1817
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Originally Posted by Pablo83 View Post
What an ugly, ill-conceived, poorly-engineered bike. I know it led to great things, and I'm sure Honda learned lots of important things because because of that bike. It certainly has a place in a museum, but it's probably my least favorite tracker of all time.

It was originally privately developed, some interesting history in the development of the Honda flat trackers if you can find it. I agree, it was a pretty poor set up, but at least someone was trying. Seems the AMA could always screw it up whenever anyone approached dethroning the XR750.

Once Honda did it, the AMA hung weight on them to relegate them into the field. The AMA didn't do the same to Harley in 1973-74 when they actually built a special racing engine (not street/production based) and started beating the snot out of the actual street/production based BSAs, Triumphs, and Yamahas. That was okay. But when Honda did it - well, can you say HOSED. That's why Honda quit. Why play when the deck is stacked.

And heaven forbid you used a multi-cylinder beyond the twin...
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Old 02-23-2013, 08:17 AM   #1818
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Originally Posted by Valleyrider View Post
Yes, Sammy's #7 and Elliot's #27 at the Ascot Reunion in Pomona last year.

I was looking at #27... Was Elliot's mom pissed when she saw the dryer vent duct was gone?
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:23 AM   #1819
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It was originally privately developed, some interesting history in the development of the Honda flat trackers if you can find it. I agree, it was a pretty poor set up, but at least someone was trying. Seems the AMA could always screw it up whenever anyone approached dethroning the XR750.

Once Honda did it, the AMA hung weight on them to relegate them into the field. The AMA didn't do the same to Harley in 1973-74 when they actually built a special racing engine (not street/production based) and started beating the snot out of the actual street/production based BSAs, Triumphs, and Yamahas. That was okay. But when Honda did it - well, can you say HOSED. That's why Honda quit. Why play when the deck is stacked.

And heaven forbid you used a multi-cylinder beyond the twin...
Does Harley own the AMA,NHRA ?
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:24 AM   #1820
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Originally Posted by telejojo View Post
Does Harley own the AMA,NHRA ?

Seemed like they had a death grip (if you didn't ride an XR) back in the 70s and 80s. With tire issues and all competition falling by the wayside, there was no action to bring the HD XR750 more into line with the other competitors, but when any others got close there seemed to be a flurry of action.

If you see the AMA hose over the current crop of Kawasakis and others you know they still have a lot of the Motor Company influence in their rule making committee. I'm hoping not, seems there are some contenders out there and it should progress as such. As much as many want to believe the Honda RS was built based on the XR, it was an engine that actually existed before being drafted into use. Granted it was tweaked and tuned to get the proper power, but hey, they all do that. A stock XR would get trashed by probably the back marker bikes in pro AMA action.

As for the NHRA, I don't know. It does seem interesting that the original Vance-Hines "Harley" had absolutely no Harley part on it. Byron Hines put the cams up so high they have extremely short pushrods, a trick to get the displacement gain from the rules, but eliminate part of the problems with having push rods - flex in the rods.

I am sure it was a great marketing ploy to gain inroads into Harley accessory exhaust and other performance goodies through the "Harley" drag racer. Getting Harley to buy in helped keep it going. Vance-Hines built a killer Honda CB1100F back in 83, but Honda didn't buy in and they dropped the project in spite of it being successful on track. I can't fault them for that. They conformed to the rules and were willing to spend the money to take advantage of the loopholes. Just because it was done for profits is not wrong.

I doubt the NHRA is swayed anywhere near as much, if at all, as the AMA appeared to be in the 70s and 80s. Oddly enough both Harley engines were specifically race engines built as such in a class that at least was originally to be street based. About the only thing I ever read about relating to "factory" in pro stock was a cast steel case set that was supposedly made in limited numbers by Suzuki I think back in the 80s or 90s. I remember reading about them, extremely high strength and the weight was able to be compensated for. But I can't document anything on that so I could be wrong.
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:08 AM   #1821
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It just seems like that in the NHRA AND AMA IF Harley can't keep up they make rules that let them win.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:10 AM   #1822
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
I was looking at #27... Was Elliot's mom pissed when she saw the dryer vent duct was gone?
Funny!! That was a Shell Thuet feature... RIP Shell
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:04 PM   #1823
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:42 PM   #1824
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
It was originally privately developed, some interesting history in the development of the Honda flat trackers if you can find it. I agree, it was a pretty poor set up, but at least someone was trying. Seems the AMA could always screw it up whenever anyone approached dethroning the XR750.

Once Honda did it, the AMA hung weight on them to relegate them into the field. The AMA didn't do the same to Harley in 1973-74 when they actually built a special racing engine (not street/production based) and started beating the snot out of the actual street/production based BSAs, Triumphs, and Yamahas. That was okay. But when Honda did it - well, can you say HOSED. That's why Honda quit. Why play when the deck is stacked.

And heaven forbid you used a multi-cylinder beyond the twin...
I think this topic has a number of ways you can look at it. Does HD sometimes get too much help from the AMA? For sure IMO! Hd's special racing engine? ALL the manufacturers had the same rules as far as homologation is concerned but I totally realize that HD cam out on top with other rules at certain races. For instance, the old 500cc OHV versus 750cc sidevalvers and whatnot.

Honda? The CX was a joke. I never saw it even qualify but I guess it did somewhere? The RS and restrictors? The RS was not WAY better than the XR before the restrictor rule and it wasn't way worse afterwords. They BOTH had to use the same restrictors. They BOTH slowed down for it too.
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:51 PM   #1825
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Originally Posted by markk53 View Post
Seemed like they had a death grip (if you didn't ride an XR) back in the 70s and 80s. With tire issues and all competition falling by the wayside, there was no action to bring the HD XR750 more into line with the other competitors, but when any others got close there seemed to be a flurry of action.

If you see the AMA hose over the current crop of Kawasakis and others you know they still have a lot of the Motor Company influence in their rule making committee. I'm hoping not, seems there are some contenders out there and it should progress as such. As much as many want to believe the Honda RS was built based on the XR, it was an engine that actually existed before being drafted into use. Granted it was tweaked and tuned to get the proper power, but hey, they all do that. A stock XR would get trashed by probably the back marker bikes in pro AMA action.

As for the NHRA, I don't know. It does seem interesting that the original Vance-Hines "Harley" had absolutely no Harley part on it. Byron Hines put the cams up so high they have extremely short pushrods, a trick to get the displacement gain from the rules, but eliminate part of the problems with having push rods - flex in the rods.

I am sure it was a great marketing ploy to gain inroads into Harley accessory exhaust and other performance goodies through the "Harley" drag racer. Getting Harley to buy in helped keep it going. Vance-Hines built a killer Honda CB1100F back in 83, but Honda didn't buy in and they dropped the project in spite of it being successful on track. I can't fault them for that. They conformed to the rules and were willing to spend the money to take advantage of the loopholes. Just because it was done for profits is not wrong.

I doubt the NHRA is swayed anywhere near as much, if at all, as the AMA appeared to be in the 70s and 80s. Oddly enough both Harley engines were specifically race engines built as such in a class that at least was originally to be street based. About the only thing I ever read about relating to "factory" in pro stock was a cast steel case set that was supposedly made in limited numbers by Suzuki I think back in the 80s or 90s. I remember reading about them, extremely high strength and the weight was able to be compensated for. But I can't document anything on that so I could be wrong.
The XR750 has been racing against 1000cc bikes and 1200cc Sportsters for years now. The other bikes are just now becoming competitive. The AMA making only the XR's run restrictors the WHOLE time and then increasing the restrictor's size for the last THREE seasons in a row had a LOT to do with the other bikes winning and getting on the podium more. The other engines have NO restrictor rules.

Go back and watch the races and read the stats. The RS never dominated the XR. The championship was never a complete blowout before the restrictor rule that BOTH HD and Honda had to follow.

XR power is now finally down enough for other engines to be competitive. It took bigger and bigger restrictors than they thought despite being 250cc's down on displacement for the XR being super light and having the ability to make gobs of high RPM torque IMO mostly for their super long rod length to stroke ratio.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:26 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
es.

Go back and watch the races and read the stats. The RS never dominated the XR.
How many RS's were competing against how many XR's at your average national. if only %10 (a total guess) of the bikes in the field were RS's and %90 were XR's and the RS won the title back to back I think it's fair to use the word dominate.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:37 AM   #1827
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Seriously? I Was at the races when this all happened. The RS 750 Honda scared the tar out of Harley. The whole restrictor thing came about because the Harley couldn't keep up with the RS. Otherwise they would have kept racing them selves with no problem. It is a legit statement to say that the RS dominated the Harley. HArley had more pull in with the rules makers to try and level the playing field, otherwise today we'd all be complaining about the Honda RS series and all the old XR's would be sitting in dealership displays.

This is strictly speculation and my personal opinion, but if Bubba Shobert didn't have a career ending accident and they didn't demolish the RS with weight and restriction rules, we all be saying Scott Parker who?

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Old 02-27-2013, 09:28 AM   #1828
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750 Trackmaster Triumph I just acquired.TT120 motor,built by the late Danny Macias,Barnes,ARD,Grimeca,et al.Set of Ceriani RR forks to come,along with MT-53 Pirelli's.Loud and runs like it should!



please tell me where to send the check and the amount required.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:05 AM   #1829
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Originally Posted by Donzzilla View Post
Seriously? I Was at the races when this all happened. The RS 750 Honda scared the tar out of Harley. The whole restrictor thing came about because the Harley couldn't keep up with the RS. Otherwise they would have kept racing them selves with no problem. It is a legit statement to say that the RS dominated the Harley. HArley had more pull in with the rules makers to try and level the playing field, otherwise today we'd all be complaining about the Honda RS series and all the old XR's would be sitting in dealership displays.

This is strictly speculation and my personal opinion, but if Bubba Shobert didn't have a career ending accident and they didn't demolish the RS with weight and restriction rules, we all be saying Scott Parker who?

Zilla!
I'm with ya Zilla! You could ad Ricky Graham, Ronny Jones, Rich King and others. Harley's race directors for years went right to the AMA director positions, Dick O'Brien for one there where others I can't remember names without looking up. Harley has done a lot for the sport but kept a Big Thumb on it as well. They are already Squealing over the Kawasaki. How about they get off their asses a build a new dirt track motor! Or let them compete in their own (vintage) class! I was a Springfield in 95' when Ricky set the track record that held for years, and the crowd actually booed when he beat Scot Parker.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:08 AM   #1830
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please tell me where to send the check and the amount required.
By the way that Triumph is Exquisite!
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