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Old 06-14-2012, 06:02 AM   #76
Airhead Wrangler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brittrunyon View Post
Can someone explain this non-compatibility.....?
I talked to John Rayski about this actually. He said there's really no known incompatibility, but he had one of his units fail on a customer's bike which just happened to have a Shorai battery on it. He couldn't identify the mode of failure so he decided to just limit his exposure a bit and say his products aren't compatible with Shorai batteries even though there is no specific incompatibility he can identify. He only knows of one such failure, and said that I should be just fine, but that he just won't warrant the application. I plan to get a shorai battery for my bike and run the enduralast alternator and enduraspark ignition.
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Airhead Wrangler screwed with this post 06-14-2012 at 06:31 AM
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:40 AM   #77
ignatz72
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Curious...

It will be good to know your results AW, since both the Enduralast and Omega now tout similar max wattage of 450.

I wonder what Shorai has to say about higher Amp charging since their website shows a lower max rate than either the Endo or Omega units.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:00 PM   #78
bikecat
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So has anyone fitted a Shorai with an Enduralast?
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Old 07-19-2014, 07:51 PM   #79
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Omega has been 450 watts for some time, about 2 years if memory serves.

R60 has been Omega for over a decade. RS for 7 years of high speed high rev and zero failures. Das Beast, the beater R100RS, has a "beater" Omega (returned, repaired and display parts) system. Works fine

No experience with Enduralast. As I have been on boxers since I was 19 and I am now closing in on 52, I know and understand the Omega. No need for another system; I have owned Ducati's before and SWMBO has one. It is what it it is.
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:07 PM   #80
Bill Harris
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Old thread. Lotsa rah-rah-sis-boom-ba flag waving for Enduralast.

Omega system since 2009. Omega diode board upgrade since 2003. Pre-emptive replacement of original rotor in 2002 with Motoelect rebuilt. Original regulator upgraded with electronic unit in 2001. Stock diode board repair 1978 and 1999. Brushes as needed, probably 3-4 times in 200K miles.

'Cept for two bad solder joints on the diode board, zero failures in 40 years.

Oh yeah. And a whole bunch of slosh-batteries. They've gotten better for longevity over the years.

Yay. :|

--Bill :)
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:25 PM   #81
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just posted this in another thread .. but it fits perfect and explains why EME doesn't recommend LiFePO4 with their 450 watt systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beemerphile View Post
Cy, I am sure you know this stuff better than I do. All I can say is that if it quits working flawlessly one day, I may do something different. I finally have no dissatisfaction with the charging system that is driving me to do something different. I've ridden Airheads on long journeys since 1977 and came to this conclusion after repeated failures with the stock systems. With the stock systems, I always packed a diode board, a rotor, and a VR. I've used the spares or loaned them to stranded riders many times. The only spare I never used was the Thunderchild diode board (after tossing the stock Wehrle into the weeds) . With the EME system, I only carry a R/R and have not needed it. The PM rotor will not fail and I am betting on the stator being able to carry the load. I like the idea of less weight hanging on the end of the crankshaft and the diagnostic simplicity of the system. As you said there are pros and cons for EM/PM systems. When I weigh them out, the PM wins for me. We don't agree on LiFePO4 batteries either, but if I used one, it would be an EarthX with its built-in BMS. I had a quite dramatic Shorai failure on my R1150.

It is all kind of academic for me at this point as I no longer ride Airheads to crazy places. I'll just call my wife to come get me with the truck. Since 2004 the crazy rides have been done on the R1150 and in 2012 it was retired to rally duty and the serious adventures (like next month's trip to Labrador - Newfoundland) are done on a fairly customized Honda NC700x (which in 2012 still has a PM alternator with R/R). We are fortunate that good options exist as there is no single solution that works to everyone's satisfaction.
don't think anyone is saying PM alternators don't work and/or are not reliable. just that EM alternators are technically superior and equally reliable. comparing a 30+ year old airhead charging system with all sorts of age/heat related issues vs a brand new PM charging system in terms of reliability is not fair. there's no reason why that 30 year old airhead EM charging system cannot be made reliable as the new PM system. both EM and PM charging systems can be made equally reliable.

in fact most modern motorcycles go with PM charging systems .. my guess is lower productions costs. R1150/R1200 was one of the last holdouts for EM, until new water cooled R1200 switched to PM too.

your R1150 puts out 720watts and is one of the best charging systems on any motorcycle using a EM that regulates output depending on need.

unfortunately most folks don't understand LiFePO4 has a max charge rate of 4C (C=AH) which is compounded by problem of LiFePO4 mfg telling whoopers when making AH claims. likely you followed mfg suggestion of using a Shorai LFX18 .. which a few years ago was 5AH actual .. NOT 18AH, notice the pb/eq closeby.

720 watts less overhead means about 39 amps delivered to battery. since R1150/R1200 has one of the highest parasitic drains of all motorcycles. odds are that tiny 5AH battery is almost dead from simply sitting.

all li-on batteries including LiFePO4 has extremely low internal resistance. this apply equally to charging. that tiny LiFePO4 will try to swallow all the amps thrown at it during bulk charge phase. severely overheating battery to the point of melting.

39amp = 7C+ charge rate or way too high!

above is why EME states NOT to use LiFePO4 with their PM charging systems. which is not true of course ... PM charging systems works just fine with LiFePO4 .. but it does have to be sized correctly .. let's see at 450 watts .. after overhead about 29 amp will be delivered to battery. 29 amp charging a 5AH LiFePO4 = almost 6C or too high charge rate.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:51 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
I talked to John Rayski about this actually. He said there's really no known incompatibility, but he had one of his units fail on a customer's bike which just happened to have a Shorai battery on it. He couldn't identify the mode of failure so he decided to just limit his exposure a bit and say his products aren't compatible with Shorai batteries even though there is no specific incompatibility he can identify. He only knows of one such failure, and said that I should be just fine, but that he just won't warrant the application. I plan to get a shorai battery for my bike and run the enduralast alternator and enduraspark ignition.
old thread ... so which LiFePO4 did you run in your R80?

be sure to find out actual AH of which ever model you end up with. factor actual amps delivered to battery after overhead, which should be aprox 29amps for a 450 watt system. LiFePO4 has a max charge rate of 4C (C=AH) .. so 29 divided by 4 = 7.25amps which is the smallest actual AH LiFePO4 you should use. Shorai was the first to use the extremely misleading pb/eq method to express AH. which means little to nothing, along with use of CCA. both are not indicators of reliability for LiFePO4.

Shoria changed actual AH for same pb/eq labeling awhile back confusing things even further. it's gotten so confusing that the only reliable way to calculate actual AH without doing a discharge test .. is weight. Seattle gets some low temps in the winter .. winter conditions are where using a tiny LiFePO4 shows it's weakness. A tiny LiFePO4 will crank your airhead strongly during warm weather but can fail during winter temps. airheads are known to be cranky to start at lower temps. I've measured 275+ amps draw when cranking at 20f on my G/S. Shorai LFX36 (14AH) did an excellent job at those temps.

LOTS more info inside battery testing thread .. link in sig

_cy_ screwed with this post 07-20-2014 at 03:01 AM
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