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Old 05-29-2011, 04:48 PM   #181
Steez
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Thanks for all the helps guys. Truly helps out a lot! now I'm debating on using all tracks or a mixture of tracks and routes. Hmmm....

One last question: Has anyone traveled the entire tat with uploading gps points from the new rollcharts in sequential order? I'm guessing no since this would probably max out the number of waypoints for the 60csx?
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:24 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Steez View Post
Thanks for all the helps guys. Truly helps out a lot! now I'm debating on using all tracks or a mixture of tracks and routes. Hmmm....

One last question: Has anyone traveled the entire tat with uploading gps points from the new rollcharts in sequential order? I'm guessing no since this would probably max out the number of waypoints for the 60csx?
I have yet traveled the TAT, but have loaded the entire TAT from Sams maps onto Mapsource and transferred them as "tracks" and some routes to the Zumo 450(routes) and 60Csx(tracks). As long as you don't use too many track "points" you can load the entire "track" from east to west!
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:19 PM   #183
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Nevada GPS tracks

Let me precede this by saying: I bought the maps (OR, NV, UT, CO) and am happy to pay Sam for it. Clearly a lot of time and effort went into this, and the OR/UT/CO roll charts are stunning. After a few hours of boring data entry with my pillion, we have those sections dialed in.

Not so with the Nevada section - there are no GPS points on the rollcharts. I'm also having serious problems getting the route mapped out in Basecamp. Maybe MapSource is better, but I'm on a Mac. The roads on the printed maps don't seem to correlate with what I see on the computer. As one of the tech-savviest people I know (hell, I write GIS software for fun) I'm ashamed to admit that this is a novel experience in frustration for me, but here I am. And I've run out of time.

Also, we're doing it backwards OR -> CO. It won't be as much fun as following the roll charts but this is the only option for us. Yes, I know it won't be perfect and will probably involve a few wrong turns but we're ok with that.

Can some kind soul send me GPS tracks for the Nevada section? I'm happy to send you a picture of me sitting in a huge pile of TAT maps to prove I bought them. The alternative is that we'll pretty much have to make up our own route through Nevada, which won't be a bad time but won't be as much fun as following the TAT.

We plan to post a ride report afterwards. I might even talk my gf into posting a picture topless on the 990A. We're that desperate!

Thanks,
Jeff
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:51 PM   #184
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Tit for TAT.

Nice one!!
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Old 08-22-2011, 02:05 PM   #185
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Thanks everyone - all taken care of.

Our Bay Area departure has been delayed a day so it looks like we're going to skip Oregon and head straight for the start of the Nevada section tomorrow. RR will come in a few weeks.

Jeff
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:03 PM   #186
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I hate to dig up this thread but I am somewhat new to adventure motorcycling and plan on doing the TAT at some time. I notice a lot of people trying to protect Sam and his maps but here is something you may not have thought of. I can say I give Sam respect for finding this route through the many states, however I disagree with those claiming that he was the trail's "developer". Sam didn't create the trail, he doesn't own the land it's on, and he doesn't maintain the route. What Sam did was find a way through the states, and map it. Good for him, but is that saying that no one else was capable of it? Just because he beat someone else to the punch doesn't mean he should get my money, $344 now for the maps and roll charts, really? Especially after the thousands of people who have done it since. Are they asking for money because they know the same route?

Also, Sam's maps, have you seen his maps? He is taking regular state maps, not maps that he created, and using them to map out his routes. Is Sam a cartographer? He's is using maps created by someone else, printing them, and mapping the route. How is that different from anyone else doing the same thing to his maps? I'm going to go down to city hall, get free state maps, map out a trail I walked on and turn around and sell them for $10.00. Answer me this, why should I pay an individual for a conglomeration of maps that outline a trail interconnected by public roads that he doesn't own? How is posting GPS coordinates or copying a map that plots out a route that is public roads violate copyright? You cannot copyright a route that is nothing but interconnecting points on a map that point to publicly accessible roads that you don't own. If anything, the various states the trail travels through are the ones that own the rights to it. I can get lost in the woods and finally make it back home, plot out the route on a pre-printed state map and sell it for a profit because it was an adventure? I don't think so. The mirage of the term "intellectual property" covers what is referred to as "intangible assets" which include discoveries, and inventions. But Sam didn't "discover" the trail, he didn't discover the roads that interconnected it all. The roads were already there, he's just showing you where they are. Now if he wants paid for taking people on the route as a guide. I'm all for it, that's a legitimate business. But making maps of a trail on other maps you didn't make is not.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:22 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by MetalHeadT View Post
I hate to dig up this thread but I am somewhat new to adventure motorcycling and plan on doing the TAT at some time. I notice a lot of people trying to protect Sam and his maps but here is something you may not have thought of. I can say I give Sam respect for finding this route through the many states, however I disagree with those claiming that he was the trail's "developer". Sam didn't create the trail, he doesn't own the land it's on, and he doesn't maintain the route. What Sam did was find a way through the states, and map it. Good for him, but is that saying that no one else was capable of it? Just because he beat someone else to the punch doesn't mean he should get my money, $344 now for the maps and roll charts, really? Especially after the thousands of people who have done it since. Are they asking for money because they know the same route?

Also, Sam's maps, have you seen his maps? He is taking regular state maps, not maps that he created, and using them to map out his routes. Is Sam a cartographer? He's is using maps created by someone else, printing them, and mapping the route. How is that different from anyone else doing the same thing to his maps? I'm going to go down to city hall, get free state maps, map out a trail I walked on and turn around and sell them for $10.00. Answer me this, why should I pay an individual for a conglomeration of maps that outline a trail interconnected by public roads that he doesn't own? How is posting GPS coordinates or copying a map that plots out a route that is public roads violate copyright? You cannot copyright a route that is nothing but interconnecting points on a map that point to publicly accessible roads that you don't own. If anything, the various states the trail travels through are the ones that own the rights to it. I can get lost in the woods and finally make it back home, plot out the route on a pre-printed state map and sell it for a profit because it was an adventure? I don't think so. The mirage of the term "intellectual property" covers what is referred to as "intangible assets" which include discoveries, and inventions. But Sam didn't "discover" the trail, he didn't discover the roads that interconnected it all. The roads were already there, he's just showing you where they are. Now if he wants paid for taking people on the route as a guide. I'm all for it, that's a legitimate business. But making maps of a trail on other maps you didn't make is not.

To be clear - Sam did discover the roads and the route and the trails...er so you're saying that because someone figured out a music note thousands of years ago because someone put them in a different order the song isn't protected... hey Sam didn't invent that note... or say because someone invented something made out of say steel - that well... steels been around for a long time. Hey I know - that artist didn't invent red paint so I can just walk away with that image...

Besides if it isn't of value to you then why do you want to ride the TAT? Go find your own trail and roads and route and have just as much fun and when you get back you can tell everyone where you went and share your "tracks"

You did dig it up and it is your prerogative to either steal the maps or buy them - I don't care.

Sam did something that has added immeasurably to the lives of many of us here - including it seems you - so why not thank him for that by giving him some coin. Regardless of whether we think his maps are copyrighted or not... and well his maps are.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:09 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by MetalHeadT View Post
I notice a lot of people trying to protect Sam and his maps but here is something you may not have thought of.
Please read the mod's post #167 in this thread, and take your whining comments where they belong. Then read that other thread, where ALL your questions and thoughts were answered dozens of times. Then do as Disco Dean suggested and create your own unique and innovative 3000 mile ride, make maps and roll charts and GPS tracks, and post them for all of us to use for free.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:49 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Disco Dean View Post
To be clear - Sam did discover the roads and the route and the trails...er so you're saying that because someone figured out a music note thousands of years ago because someone put them in a different order the song isn't protected... hey Sam didn't invent that note... or say because someone invented something made out of say steel - that well... steels been around for a long time. Hey I know - that artist didn't invent red paint so I can just walk away with that image...
Disco, VERY well put! Never thought of that stupid old argument agianst intelectual property in that light.

However there seems to be a mind set out there in a very large group, that they are entitled to any thing they want.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:16 PM   #190
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So you're saying that the same guitar notes have never been played? How interesting, I can alter any guitar note and that makes it different, it's not protected. You cannot copyright a path through public roads and charge for it when it doesn't belong to you. Go find my own trail? It's publicly accessible roads, it IS my trail. Just because someone before me rode it and said "hey this is a cool route I'll share it" doesn't give him any right to charge me $344 for some maps. Not when he uses maps someone else has made and then paints his route over it.

Sorry but Sam or anyone else doesn't dictate where I ride my bike. It's as much my trail as it is anyone elses. You say Sam discovered the roads but the people who made the roads knew they were there, where's their compensation if I'm supposed to compensate Sam? Does part of his money go to those who built the roads? I didn't think so.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:36 PM   #191
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.........You say Sam discovered the roads but the people who made the roads knew they were there, where's their compensation if I'm supposed to compensate Sam?.........

Your taxes, you inconsiderate fool. I guess you mooch off of the rest of us on that one also? Sorry Dave, another one to trim.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:38 PM   #192
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So you're saying that the same guitar notes have never been played? How interesting, I can alter any guitar note and that makes it different, it's not protected. You cannot copyright a path through public roads and charge for it when it doesn't belong to you. Go find my own trail? It's publicly accessible roads, it IS my trail. Just because someone before me rode it and said "hey this is a cool route I'll share it" doesn't give him any right to charge me $344 for some maps. Not when he uses maps someone else has made and then paints his route over it.

Sorry but Sam or anyone else doesn't dictate where I ride my bike. It's as much my trail as it is anyone elses. You say Sam discovered the roads but the people who made the roads knew they were there, where's their compensation if I'm supposed to compensate Sam? Does part of his money go to those who built the roads? I didn't think so.
I think the point is the guy spent a considerable amount of time coming up with the route and verifying it. You're paying for his time, which is worth something. If it's not worth $344 to you, then spend your own time to come up with your own route. Nobody's stopping you.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:46 PM   #193
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MeatHead, not only can't you show respect to someone who has put in a huge amount of work to provide a turnkey adventure ride for thousands of happy customers, but you also can't seem to show respect for what the mod has asked. Please read this again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Please read the mod's post #167 in this thread
For the lazy who can't understand simple logic, that means take you whining here:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545857
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:56 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by MetalHeadT View Post
So you're saying that the same guitar notes have never been played? How interesting, I can alter any guitar note and that makes it different, it's not protected. You cannot copyright a path through public roads and charge for it when it doesn't belong to you. Go find my own trail? It's publicly accessible roads, it IS my trail. Just because someone before me rode it and said "hey this is a cool route I'll share it" doesn't give him any right to charge me $344 for some maps. Not when he uses maps someone else has made and then paints his route over it.

Sorry but Sam or anyone else doesn't dictate where I ride my bike. It's as much my trail as it is anyone elses. You say Sam discovered the roads but the people who made the roads knew they were there, where's their compensation if I'm supposed to compensate Sam? Does part of his money go to those who built the roads? I didn't think so.
No actually I am saying that Jimi Hendrix played the same notes as Eric Clapton or Eddie Vedder or Bach or Mozart... it is just that they used them in different combinations and tempos, and times... Just like Sam has taken roads and trails we all have access to and can use whenever we want but combined them in such a way as to not only be safe, but fun, fuel efficient with stops, for various abilities and technical difficulty and like I said entertaining. It is this combination that is uniquely Sams and by law is copyrighted. And for the record even if it wasn't copyrighted because of Sams unique and personal perspective and creative input into the "combination" of those trails... he has the "right" to charge whatever the heck he wants for them.... that is the free market.

Besides which I don't think I said anything about admission to the trails and I don't think Sam has ever charged anyone to ride one of the trails on his maps... look at that "his maps" The next time you go into the 7Eleven - just pick up one of those road maps and walk out and see what happens.

It IS your trail - but it is Sams route - which is why you pay... or should.

Oh yah - and you are right no one dictates where you ride - well except for the government or land owners... but you can ride anywhere you want... you can even ride on all the trails that Sam uses.... but you just can't steal the route he alone has created... does that clarify it?
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:01 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by MetalHeadT View Post
Just because someone before me rode it and said "hey this is a cool route I'll share it" doesn't give him any right to charge me $344 for some maps.
You are absolutly right, that is not what gives him the right to sell his product! It is his right as an American to try to sell any legal product that he owns.

However, that is not the question. As I understand it, you want his product but do not want to pay for it. That is understandable I don't like to pay for goods or services either, but if I really want them I step up and pay for them. It sounds like you want someone who has paid for the information to share it with you for free, just like the music hakers.
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