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Old 08-29-2014, 12:21 PM   #226
Countdown
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[QUOTE=Cigar Mike;24949921]Sam has had a good run and will continue to do so. The problem is the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely. There are a few that have chosen to make sharing the fun a business. That's fine and I have no problem with that. But as a business it is there responsibility to protect it. [QUOTE]

There are very few riders who have developed long (over 2,000 Mi) rides and then posted then in he public domain for any one to use for free.

R-Dubb is the foremost with his Pacific Crest Quest. He thought it up, he did it, and he posted tracks on the Internet. It is a great Mexico to Canada ride that I am in the process of updating and posting for free public use.

I found out about the Great Western Trail which has a concept on GWT.com and a few sections signed by the forest service but no GPS information. I spent three years and a few $k riding it, re-routing it to gas and other services, recording GPS tracks, and have posted them on the Internet for free public use.

Big Dog has planned, ridden, and shared tracks for several fantastic and innovative very long loops in western states. He basically rode a crude version of the GWT before there was any interest by other Adv riders. His route was a help to me in refining it into as much fun dirt as possible.

Northern Traveler has planned, scouted, and posted tracks for an east/west route from PCQ to GWT/ToI to CDR.

WBBNM has planned, ridden, and posted tracks for some great long several day loops in the southwest.

There may be a few more but these 5 riders are the only ones I know of who have developed from scratch anything like Sam has done and freely shared them. By far, the majority of riders have nothing comparable to TAT of their own to share.

You say "the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely".
This is obviously true for the five people above and a few others and several thousand short of "Most of us".

Sam, Hog Wild, Touratech/Butler-Maps, and I have all spent a lot of time and money developing tours for commercial sale. Any effort to use the results of this hard work without compensating the developer for his work is just not what my mother would be proud of.
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:15 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Countdown View Post
Sam, Hog Wild, Touratech/Butler-Maps, and I have all spent a lot of time and money developing tours for commercial sale. Any effort to use the results of this hard work without compensating the developer for his work is just not what my mother would be proud of.
I am amazed at the lenghts you will go to avoid addressing the actual questions and also your complete lack of understanding of intellectual property law.

Just one last question which I'm sure you won't answer, but here goes:

If one of your customers, in spite of all your efforts, posts a gps track of your can2mex ride, what actions will you or can you take?
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Old 08-29-2014, 02:38 PM   #228
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[QUOTE=Countdown;24959272][QUOTE=Cigar Mike;24949921]Sam has had a good run and will continue to do so. The problem is the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely. There are a few that have chosen to make sharing the fun a business. That's fine and I have no problem with that. But as a business it is there responsibility to protect it.
Quote:

There are very few riders who have developed long (over 2,000 Mi) rides and then posted then in he public domain for any one to use for free.

R-Dubb is the foremost with his Pacific Crest Quest. He thought it up, he did it, and he posted tracks on the Internet. It is a great Mexico to Canada ride that I am in the process of updating and posting for free public use.

I found out about the Great Western Trail which has a concept on GWT.com and a few sections signed by the forest service but no GPS information. I spent three years and a few $k riding it, re-routing it to gas and other services, recording GPS tracks, and have posted them on the Internet for free public use.

Big Dog has planned, ridden, and shared tracks for several fantastic and innovative very long loops in western states. He basically rode a crude version of the GWT before there was any interest by other Adv riders. His route was a help to me in refining it into as much fun dirt as possible.

Northern Traveler has planned, scouted, and posted tracks for an east/west route from PCQ to GWT/ToI to CDR.

WBBNM has planned, ridden, and posted tracks for some great long several day loops in the southwest.

There may be a few more but these 5 riders are the only ones I know of who have developed from scratch anything like Sam has done and freely shared them. By far, the majority of riders have nothing comparable to TAT of their own to share.

You say "the motorcycle community enjoys riding an sharing that enjoyment with others. Most of us are willing to share what we enjoy with others freely".
This is obviously true for the five people above and a few others and several thousand short of "Most of us".

Sam, Hog Wild, Touratech/Butler-Maps, and I have all spent a lot of time and money developing tours for commercial sale. Any effort to use the results of this hard work without compensating the developer for his work is just not what my mother would be proud of.
As I said before, I have no problem at all with the product you provide. I respect the effort it takes to run a business. I have been there and done that. My point is that the mindset of many riders do not take this into consideration because, as you just stated, there are not that many people that do the really long rides. Since so many free routes are available many do not see the difference between what you post for free and what you require a fee for. This does not make it right. It is what it is. I also wanted to point out what you may be paying for. And unlike other products you purchase, there is no assurance that product will deliver as promised. But just like the mindset works against you it works for you in this. As adventurers there is no expectation that it can be completed as provided.

The real problem is protecting the product you produce. Which you have covered in detail. When I was producing center stands I realized from the beginning that I would not have the resources to protect my product with a patent and because of that it is a waste of my time and money. Unless you have the funds to take infringements to court you have no recourse. Even if you did you would come out on the short end of the stick because it would be impossible to show monetary damages that would cover lawyers fees and any loss of potential sales.

You have to have your eyes wide open when you start a business. Counting on the honesty of the general public is not a good business plan. I hate thieves, but they are out there knowingly and unknowingly stealing our stuff.

Having a discussion about this helps those understand the work that goes into what you do and why you believe it is unlawful to use your product second hand. I am afraid there are many that will not agree with you. And to a degree I do not as well. Once I purchase a product it belongs to me. I can share it with my friends or even sell it to my friends. Because it is mine, I paid for it. But I do agree that it should not be reproduced and distributed.
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:16 PM   #229
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A few more that I've done

Countdown has credited me with a route from the PCQ to the CDR, but there are a few more I've done.

The route from the northern end of the PCQ (Manzama WA) to the northern end of the CDR (at least in the US - Eureka MT) I released in 2010. I have since extended the free portion from Anacosta WA (on the coast) to Eureka with two options across Washington state.

That route now extends to central PA. The mid section I'm debating selling and haven't released.

The eastern end in PA I'm in the process of releasing for free.

This route I call the 'Northern Route'

I have also 90% built a southern connector for the PCQ and CDR, haven't gotten around to releasing it either, but am in discussions with this site for hosting... files are too big for normal posting. Around 3k miles scouting.

I call this route the 'Southern Route'

I also built the TET-S - the southern half of an east coast route from the Gulf of Mexico to the eastern border of Maine. Chip - InTheNew - did the northern half (I helped a bit). Chip had the idea to do it, and I said I would do the southern half - I'm now around 2790 miles of released route.

I'm past 10k miles scouting TET-S. - this is giving back to the community.

I'm past 23k miles scouting my Northern Route... some I'm giving away, but some - why shouldn't I be compensated?
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:35 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernTraveler View Post
Countdown has credited me with a route from the PCQ to the CDR, but there are a few more I've done.

The route from the northern end of the PCQ (Manzama WA) to the northern end of the CDR (at least in the US - Eureka MT) I released in 2010. I have since extended the free portion from Anacosta WA (on the coast) to Eureka with two options across Washington state.

That route now extends to central PA. The mid section I'm debating selling and haven't released.

The eastern end in PA I'm in the process of releasing for free.

This route I call the 'Northern Route'

I have also 90% built a southern connector for the PCQ and CDR, haven't gotten around to releasing it either, but am in discussions with this site for hosting... files are too big for normal posting. Around 3k miles scouting.

I call this route the 'Southern Route'

I also built the TET-S - the southern half of an east coast route from the Gulf of Mexico to the eastern border of Maine. Chip - InTheNew - did the northern half (I helped a bit). Chip had the idea to do it, and I said I would do the southern half - I'm now around 2790 miles of released route.

I'm past 10k miles scouting TET-S. - this is giving back to the community.

I'm past 23k miles scouting my Northern Route... some I'm giving away, but some - why shouldn't I be compensated?
I don't see where you need anyone's permission. It is like any commercial venture. If you did all of that to make money it's stupid not to try. Would you have done it only for the fun of it?
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Old 08-29-2014, 10:35 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
And unlike other products you purchase, there is no assurance that product will deliver as promised.
You clearly have a fair view of this subject, and understand right from wrong. But I'm curious where is it promised, guaranteed, or even implied that any route such as TAT is 100% passable at the time a customer rides it? Even with a high-price Garmin map, there is no promise or guarantee that there are no mistakes in the data, or that it is 100% up to date. Can I legally or even morally demand a partial refund from Garmin if I find a mistake, miss-identified or recently closed road? If such a guarantee is given, then I would agree that there is an expectation that it's all passable. Of course it would be impossible for the author to provide 100% perfection in such a long route given that conditions on any road can change at any time. Perhaps in the case of TAT, it could be better presented on the website that "shit happens, any particular section may or may not be passable at any particular time". If they were 99.99% perfect, I would expect a much higher price for TAT tracks since the work involved in assuring that could be astronomical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
The real problem is protecting the product you produce.
Yes, that's absolutely a serious difficulty. It would not be a problem if people were honest and acted in a respectful way. But that's not the way the world is, as is made clear by some in this and related threads, so we deal with it the best we can. In my case, I significantly limit who has access to the information. I also convey the importance of respecting the value of the information, and the consequences of violating the trust of that info. As far as I can tell, I've been 100% successful with that approach. If you can find tracks for DVR, TGR, or Diabolical (my 3 main projects, totaling about 7500 miles so far), let me know and I'll amend that secrecy success rate.

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Counting on the honesty of the general public is not a good business plan. I hate thieves, but they are out there knowingly and unknowingly stealing our stuff.
Correct, and when wrong doing is uncovered, it should be called out. Truthfully, my guess is that the OP here didn't really know or understand what he was doing was wrong, until he was called on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
Once I purchase a product it belongs to me. I can share it with my friends or even sell it to my friends. Because it is mine, I paid for it. But I do agree that it should not be reproduced and distributed.
If it's identified as a non-transferable one-time use only item (which is what I do, and basically what movie theaters and concerts do), then there should be no question. In my case, I'm selling a very unique adventure experience, not a track or roadbook or other description of a route to be followed. The GPS tracks or roadbooks are just "rented" tools used to have that experience, and those tools remain MY property. And since it's clearly stated and agreed to be a "one-time" only thing, where recording is not allowed, a legal contract is established.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:14 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I'm curious where is it promised, guaranteed, or even implied that any route such as TAT is 100% passable at the time a customer rides it? Even with a high-price Garmin map, there is no promise or guarantee that there are no mistakes in the data, or that it is 100% up to date.
This is also true for PCQ, GWT, & CDR each year but riders consider the work arounds as part of the adventure. Somehow with the TAT it voids the ownership issue in some rider's minds.

Quote:
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If it's identified as a non-transferable one-time use only item (which is what I do, and basically what movie theaters and concerts do), then there should be no question. The GPS tracks or roadbooks are just "rented" tools used to have that experience, and those tools remain MY property. And since it's clearly stated and agreed to be a "one-time" only thing, where recording is not allowed, a legal contract is established.
I think I have pointed this out at least three times but again some riders still view a one time tour as a hard product that can be passes on.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:34 PM   #233
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If I purchase the one time use of the track and have four friends riding with me should they also pay you for the experience? I would guess no. If this is so, how many becomes too many.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:43 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Countdown View Post
This is also true for PCQ, GWT, & CDR each year but riders consider the work arounds as part of the adventure. Somehow with the TAT it voids the ownership issue in some rider's minds.



I think I have pointed this out at least three times but again some riders still view a one time tour as a hard product that can be passes on.
I am afraid that is exactly what it is. Whether you like it or not. It is more like buying a DVD then going to a movie or concert. Unless you guide it how can it be anything else.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:47 PM   #235
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If I purchase the one time use of the track and have four friends riding with me should they also pay you for the experience?
In my opinion YES, because the others would be getting the "adventure/experience" without paying. In the case of my rides, absolutely they need to pay. In this case, it's like a movie or concert ticket. You can't have five non-paying people follow the one paying guy through the gate.

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Unless you guide it how can it be anything else.
The tracks, or roll chart, or map ARE the guide.
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Old 08-29-2014, 11:59 PM   #236
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You know what you are doing and it is apprecaited. I am taking a side that I really don't want to pursue. Kind of a devils advocate. But by doing so I am picking your brain for the arguments to support your position. You make good points and I would expect nothing less.

My daughter is an award winning author and copy right infringement is an important issue for authors and publishers.

Keep up the good work. I wish you much success in your business. I also appreciate the no nonsense discussion without name calling and attacks on my character. A class act.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:03 AM   #237
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Have a great weekend!
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:22 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
In my opinion YES, because the others would be getting the "adventure/experience" without paying. In the case of my rides, absolutely they need to pay. In this case, it's like a movie or concert ticket. You can't have five non-paying people follow the one paying guy through the gate.

The tracks, or roll chart, or map ARE the guide.
So along with telling people when they RENT ( buy ) your tracks that they can't, copy, or use them twice, or GPS the tracks. Do you tell them they can't let anyone ride with them?
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:28 AM   #239
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Seemed just right for this thread
If that's the way you see it, then why did you participate? Cigar Mike took a constructive approach which helped bring some good points up. Some may call it pointless arguing, others may see it as an opportunity to learn something or see things from a different perspective.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:57 AM   #240
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Do you tell them they can't let anyone ride with them?
The way I operate and the nature of my rides is a bit different than what you might be imagining. If I don't know you, or you're not recommended or referred by someone I know and trust, then you're probably not going to participate. Everyone who participates gets a heavy dose of "please respect the confidentiality of the routes and materials". Good honest people respect that and act accordingly. If someone tags along for free, I generally would not care much because they would be with someone I trust. Most participants are repeats, or will be in the future, so they know not to abuse my trust.

One of the main reasons I do not open my rides to "everyone" is because there are so many dishonest people out there. YOU can't come because OTHERS are dishonest. THIS is what Sam means when he says copying and distributing tracks hurts further development. In my case it's not the development that is limited, it's the lack of availability to others that is limited. If most people acted respectfully, there would be more great rides available to you. Dishonest people hurt the honest people.
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