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Old 08-30-2014, 09:12 AM   #241
Cigar Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
In my opinion YES, because the others would be getting the "adventure/experience" without paying.
You made this post after my last. I wish you would not have done that. I do have a problem with that. Even the National Park service charges by the car load. Even if my wife and I are on two motorcycles both of us are covered under one National Park Pass. I haven't been to drive-in movie for 30 years but they charged by the car load. The States Park system in Colorado charges by the carload. I guess from your reasoning if you are riding two up, both should have to pay. That is without a doubt unreasonable. I don't think many would buy into that logic. In all the examples a group of people are enjoying the "experience" together for a single fee.

Since you did not build the roads or maintain them (our tax dollars did) and you are using public roads as a money making venture. I think it is only right for there to be a user fee paid by you for the use of public roads. If you are using roads through National Park or National Forest you should also pay a fee like other concessions do to use Federal lands in a commercial venture. There is no law that requires you to do this but it is morally the right thing to do. But the reason that will never happen is as you have demonstrated in the quoted post. The money you can make is what is important.

What you do as a commercial business is fine. But the idea that you are one of the guys doing things to help the motorcycle community by providing free tracks is false. It serves one purpose. It is not giving back. It is good marketing. Just don't pretend it is something else. Providing free tracks is a business move promoting your name recognition to help sell the products. At some point you probably did share tracks to help fellow riders. But once you turn it commercial that becomes secondary.

It is a good business. You don't build any of the roads. You don't maintain them. You don't provide any assurance the trip can be completed as purchased. And that is because you don't have any control over the public roads the trip covers and that you are using for free. You went out and had a good time riding and decided to make a profit from it.

I still wish you well in your business and respect what you do as a small business. Just don't pretend it is anything else but a business and that you are giving back to the motorcycle community anymore than the Motorcycle Superstore.

I wish you hadn't posted that.

PS: Hogwild, this post is not directed at you alone. Some of the statements may refer to what Countdown has posted. But I think you get the idea.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:28 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sieg View Post
So along with telling people when they RENT ( buy ) your tracks that they can't, copy, or use them twice, or GPS the tracks. Do you tell them they can't let anyone ride with them?
Yes that is exactly what he is saying. That attitude is also why riders do make tracks and share them. It may not be right but it is human nature to react in that manner.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:46 AM   #243
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I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm sorry if you think that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
If that's the way you see it, then why did you participate?
I participated because I think there are lots of ways folks might end up with a set of Sam's instructions for the TAT without breaking any laws or moral codes. I understand we all like him and wish him well in his business, but the reality of publishing is that you don't get paid for every person who sees or reads your published material. We share books and music and newspapers and lots of other stuff. Yes, the publishers of those works wish we would all buy a copy but nonetheless handing your newspaper to the guy next to you when you've finished reading it is not illegal or immoral. We shouldn't call these people names.

I agree 100% that you shouldn't take Sam's published material to the copy store and give them to your friends or sell them or put them on the internet. 100%. Same with books and dvds and Sam's roadbook.

If you look up copyright info

here are a couple of good sources:
copyright.gov and www.teachingcopyright.org/handout/copyright-faq


it states quite explicity what is protected is the 'thing' you published; the book, the CD, the newspaper, the maps, the roadbook but not the ideas in them. There have been lots of great stories written about travelling on our great roads. The books those stories are in are protected by copyright, but not the idea of heading down Route 66 to see America.

The idea of going across America on dirt roads is not protected and can't be. Sam's physical instructions are protected, but not the idea of doing it. Also, not the instructions for doing it. A list of facts can not be copyrighted or protected. Just like a recipe. If Mrs Fields publishes a cookie book, you can not tear out the pages, scan them and post them to the internet. But the recipes are not protected. Recipes are a list of ingredients (much like directions to get across the country on dirt roads) and are not protected.

That's why I participated.

If you find yourself in Seattle, I'll buy you a beer and we'll go ride some 'secret' roads of mine.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:24 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
Even if my wife and I are on two motorcycles both of us are covered under one National Park Pass.
In a case like that, I probably would not ask for double payment. Like I said, some "free" rides are fine with me as long as I know about it and as long as someone I trust is there to see that the "sharing" does not get out of hand. I probably provide more free materials than the number I charge for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
I don't think many would buy into that logic. In all the examples a group of people are enjoying the "experience" together for a single fee.
People seem to buy into it when it comes to movies, concerts, Disneyland, racing events, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
The money you can make is what is important.
For some others that may be true, but for me that's not true at all. Given how severely I limit who "gets in", the small amount of money collected does not even cover my gas expenses. The reason I charge some is because that helps define a value for the materials. It's a round about way for the participants to show their respect for the effort put into creating the ride. If it's free, people treat it as worthless, which it is not. For me it's about respect for the quality and effort put into it.

Just a week ago I spent several hours preparing materials for 4 guys to use on a training ride. It was all provided free. I do that on a pretty regular basis. On the previous outing I didn't charge anything either, but behind my back the guys got together and bought me a full set of riding gear including top of the line Sidi boots, 2 sets of Klim riding pants, and a box full of other cool goodies. That's pretty much the exact opposite of posting GPS tracks of my ride on the internet without asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
What you do as a commercial business is fine. But the idea that you are one of the guys doing things to help the motorcycle community by providing free tracks is false. It serves one purpose. It is not giving back. It is good marketing. Just don't pretend it is something else. Providing free tracks is a business move promoting your name recognition to help sell the products. At some point you probably did share tracks to help fellow riders. But once you turn it commercial that becomes secondary.
I could see that as one possible interpretation, but I don't think it applies in my case. People come to me for my ride materials because I'm one of the few that create this particular type of material (different than Countdown, Sam, NorthernTraveler, etc.). If you contact me because you saw tracks I posted in the Great Western Trail thread or somewhere else, you're probably not the type of person who would be interested in paying for my other stuff, and I'd probably send you away anyway. Pretty much everyone who comes to me for riding material is referred to me by someone who has previously done one or more of my rides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
Just don't pretend it is anything else but a business and that you are giving back to the motorcycle community anymore than the Motorcycle Superstore.
In my opinion this does not apply to me, as described earlier. I make 100 times more at my week day job! Even if it did apply, I'm not sure what difference it makes. Either way I feel people should respect what a ride author asks for, or move on and find another ride. Regarding Countdown, it's as far from reality as I can imagine. He has GIVEN more to the dual-sport community than any single person on this planet (with the possible exception of Baldy). Countdown has posted, FREE, more GPS tracks than you could possibly imagine. Any hint of a suggestion that he has not "given back" would be laughable. As far as Sam, I have no idea. I don't know anything about him or what free tracks he may or may not have posted or other "give back" things he may have done.

I appreciate the constructive discussion!
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:28 AM   #245
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Good lord. Why is this such a difficult concept?

The TAT is a commercial product that Sam spent a lot of time developing and documenting. Two important words - commercial product.

For someone else to take his, or anyone else's commercial product, and declare it "free" and then sell it, or ask for "donations", is wrong.

To say "it's a track, and tracks should be free" is like saying it is OK to rip off any piece of commercial software because you don't like paying for it. If that were OK, why would anyone develop anything?

If you want to go and pick out roads across the U.S. by yourself and offer those to everyone for free - go for it.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:51 AM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pckopp View Post
I agree 100% that you shouldn't take Sam's published material to the copy store and give them to your friends or sell them or put them on the internet. 100%. Same with books and dvds and Sam's roadbook.
That's a bit different than what I thought you had been suggesting earlier. I'm glad you clarified that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pckopp View Post
The books those stories are in are protected by copyright, but not the idea of heading down Route 66 to see America. The idea of going across America on dirt roads is not protected and can't be. Sam's physical instructions are protected, but not the idea of doing it.
I agree 100% with that. Anyone is welcome to ride across America however they like. What I have a problem with is when they do it using any form of an original or copy of Sam's materials without Sam being compensated. If someone by pure chance and amazing random coincidence happened to follow the full TAT without somehow using a copy of Sam's materials, that's fantastic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pckopp View Post
But the recipes are not protected. Recipes are a list of ingredients (much like directions to get across the country on dirt roads) and are not protected.
So, if I take a copyrighted recipe book, copy ALL the same recipes in my own handwriting (but change the order a few of the ingredients are listed), and publish "Hogwild's Hand-Written Book of Recipes", that's ok to do, even though it's obviously the same as the other book? And on top of that, I list the name of the other book as the sub-title of "my" book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pckopp View Post
If you find yourself in Seattle, I'll buy you a beer and we'll go ride some 'secret' roads of mine.
Only if you drink your beers AND mine, and I get to follow you and watch!
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:10 PM   #247
Cigar Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Dave View Post
Good lord. Why is this such a difficult concept?

The TAT is a commercial product that Sam spent a lot of time developing and documenting. Two important words - commercial product.

For someone else to take his, or anyone else's commercial product, and declare it "free" and then sell it, or ask for "donations", is wrong.

To say "it's a track, and tracks should be free" is like saying it is OK to rip off any piece of commercial software because you don't like paying for it. If that were OK, why would anyone develop anything?

If you want to go and pick out roads across the U.S. by yourself and offer those to everyone for free - go for it.
I my be mistaken but I don't believe that is what is being discussed. I think much of the discussion involves once you actually buy the track what are the limitations of it's use other than reproduction or sale.

As Hogwild points out not all providers operate in similar fashion. What he does is different than Sam or Countdown.

I must admit that once I have purchased the track I would save it for myself and may chose to ride it a second time. And my wife would be with me both times. This makes me an evil person not to be trusted. I am just no good.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:23 PM   #248
pckopp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
So, if I take a copyrighted recipe book, copy ALL the same recipes in my own handwriting (but change the order a few of the ingredients are listed), and publish "Hogwild's Hand-Written Book of Recipes", that's ok to do, even though it's obviously the same as the other book? And on top of that, I list the name of the other book as the sub-title of "my" book.
Of course not, I said no copying. But you are free to loan the book to your neighbor when you aren't using it. But you knew that and I think you're just funnin' with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
Only if you drink your beers AND mine, and I get to follow you and watch!
Be sure and record the track and video. It will make us both a fortune on YouTube!
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:35 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
I must admit that once I have purchased the track I would save it for myself and may chose to ride it a second time. And my wife would be with me both times. This makes me an evil person not to be trusted. I am just no good.
I sure would not say that. It all depends on what the ground rules were from the original author. Sam doesn't seem to address that issue, so I don't know what he thinks. He HAS said posting tracks is bad, so that's one of his ground rules.

For my rides, if you had the integrity to ASK for a 2 for 1 deal and gave a reasonable explanation (wife deserves special consideration), I'd probably give it to you since you could have just as easily copied it without me knowing. If you DEMAND the right to copy it for your friends to use and tell me my ground rules suck, you would get nothing from me no matter how much you're willing to pay for the first one. Show respect for the quality and effort put into the product, with money, beer, friendship, or whatever, and you'll get back more value than what you put in.
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Old 08-30-2014, 12:51 PM   #250
Cigar Mike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild View Post
I sure would not say that. It all depends on what the ground rules were from the original author. Sam doesn't seem to address that issue, so I don't know what he thinks. He HAS said posting tracks is bad, so that's one of his ground rules.

For my rides, if you had the integrity to ASK for a 2 for 1 deal and gave a reasonable explanation (wife deserves special consideration), I'd probably give it to you since you could have just as easily copied it without me knowing. If you DEMAND the right to copy it for your friends to use and tell me my ground rules suck, you would get nothing from me no matter how much you're willing to pay for the first one. Show respect for the quality and effort put into the product, with money, beer, friendship, or whatever, and you'll get back more value than what you put in.
Since this is a TAT thread. I guess it should be directed more towards Sam's ride. I would do the same with Sam's. At the time I was interested in the TAT, tracks were not available. I would have had to build my own route. If I had paid Sam and found Kevin's GPS tracks I probably would have used them rather than going through the time and effort to build them myself. In addition Kevin's track has additional information that is useful. If I were still interested I would do that today.
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:21 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar Mike View Post
I my be mistaken but I don't believe that is what is being discussed. I think much of the discussion involves once you actually buy the track what are the limitations of it's use other than reproduction or sale.

As Hogwild points out not all providers operate in similar fashion. What he does is different than Sam or Countdown.

I must admit that once I have purchased the track I would save it for myself and may chose to ride it a second time. And my wife would be with me both times. This makes me an evil person not to be trusted. I am just no good.
The history of this has been people who would create a track of the TAT and then share it so people would not have to buy Sam's documents.

Whether it is Sam and the TAT, or anyone else who is selling information, the end user should be honorable enough to comply with that.

OTOH, when we go out and do casual rides and share tracks without any limitations, they are free to all. But that it not the source of the latest kerfuffle.
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:51 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9Dave View Post
The history of this has been people who would create a track of the TAT and then share it so people would not have to buy Sam's documents.

Whether it is Sam and the TAT, or anyone else who is selling information, the end user should be honorable enough to comply with that.

OTOH, when we go out and do casual rides and share tracks without any limitations, they are free to all. But that it not the source of the latest kerfuffle.
The only issue I had was the use of the route/track after I paid for it. Where is the limitation was on that. It appears to be different with each provider. There seems to be no standard acceptable method. Some are for one time use even by the customer. Once you buy a hard copy of the route from Sam is it like a book and can be given away or sold? I am not talking about reproduction for any reason. I am referring to the actual material which was paid for. Would the paper product be OK if the GPS data was excluded? Why is this different than any other hard written material? Is it just because in your opinion it is the correct thing to do?

Because Sam is a great guy? Does that become charity?
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Old 08-30-2014, 04:23 PM   #253
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I am astounded and dismayed that topics like this get so much attention.

It would be really nice to see such interest in the gory details of actual rides.

But such threads get maybe a half dozen highly incomplete responses.

That's my opinion.
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Old 08-30-2014, 04:57 PM   #254
Cigar Mike
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That is why there is more than one thread or one topic. No one is forcing you to read or participate in the thread. I hate posts that only criticise the thread for existing and don't contribute to the discussion.

That's my opinion.
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