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Old 01-04-2008, 02:36 PM   #1
ediehl OP
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LC4 Starter help?

I bought a nicely maintained '01 LC4 Enduro from a fellow who was a weight nut and had stripped everything he could from it, including the starter. That did not suit me, but he said all the parts were in the box and that it had been working fine when he stripped it. It kick-starts and runs fine.

Today I reinstalled the starter. I'm pretty sure I found the proper electrical connection---a small cylinder beside the battery, with a thick but vacant connector post that fit the cable from the starter and which was covered with a rubber cap just to keep it from grounding. From looking at the parts manual, it looked correct.


But nothing happens whan I press the starter button. Zip. No clicking or humming or anything. I tried holding in the clutch in case it's one of those setups, but nada. Fiddled with the engine kill switch, and checked all the fuses--still nothing.

He did take off some other wiring, including the neutral indicator light (he said the wire looked 'vulnerable' in its exposed position). I think he may have also removed the down-kickstand---no-start wiring setup. I'm wondering if maybe taking off some of that other wiring might have messed up the e-start?


Any clues? I did see a couple of of disconnected wires under the headlight cover, but could find nothing that they might have come loose from.

I'm no electrical wizard---could I test the starter by taking it back off and reversing it---leaving it bolted down pointed the wrong way (to be grounded), and then just pushing the cable end against the positive battery terminal to see if it spins?
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:18 PM   #2
halfcab
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Most if the male/female plugs do match up. One are two of the wires form one plug to another might be a different color.

There is more them one starter relay besides the main one that powers the starter...the one you hooked the large + cable to.

I believe the second relay is a "safety" (clutch in, neutral, hold you mouth right and all that BS) relay. I feel sure this safety relay is behind the headlight. I always by-pass that safety crap on a dirt bike. It's been a while and I can't remember what color wire goes where.

Check to make sure the large starter relay is grounded by the ground wire coming from that relay....the bike has one main fuse next to the batt and three fuses that are behind the head light.

This is not much help.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:32 PM   #3
ediehl OP
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Thanks---it may not be the full answer, but if I can thread together enough bits of info to get that starter to kick over---mission accomplished!
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:53 PM   #4
JayBo1
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I've just been through rewiring everything on my 640 to bypass all the safety interlocks. (Very simple modification that bypasses the "auxiliary starter relay"). The clutch lever is supposed to have a switch mounted that connects to a plug behind the headlight cowl. If you don't have the switch you'll have to short out the connection at the plug. The "sidestand down" switch connects just behind the fuel tank but is most likely already shorted. The Neutral switch is also required because the interlock logic ignores the sidestand switch state if the bike is in Neutral. I'll get some photo's for you because it might be slightly different for my case given that I have a 2005 640 Adventure.

I also must pull my finger out and start my planned thread on the mistakes I have found in the wiring diagram for my bike. Most significantly the "auxiliary starter relay" wiring is shown incorrectly in the manual.
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Old 01-05-2008, 04:32 AM   #5
ediehl OP
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I believe I have all the bits of wiring that were removed, but I'm not at all sure where to hook some of it back up (especially the kickstand connections). I'd love to bypass all the safety switches if possible---if JayBo1 or anybody has any good pics or drawings of how that works, it might save my a**.
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Old 01-05-2008, 05:58 AM   #6
JayBo1
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Bypassing the Auxiliary Start Relay

Quote:
I'd love to bypass all the safety switches if possible---if JayBo1 or anybody has any good pics or drawings of how that works, it might save my a**.
Okay, here we go. The following article and photo's relate to my 640 Adventure and may be applicable to the 640 Enduro. The easiest way to overcome all the potential problems is to bypass the "Auxiliary Start Relay". This will bypass all the permissive interlock checks that prevent you from:
- starting the bike while it is in gear without the clutch pulled in
- riding away with the bike in gear and the sidestand still down.

Now be very clear about this ... bypassing the auxiliary start relay is probably not legal for road use, may void warranties or insurance cover and bring all sorts of other bad karma your way. I take no responsibility for any outcomes of this modification other than my own outcomes. I have made this modification to my own bike for racing use only. So sue someone else if you're stupid enough to ride away with the sidestand still down or hit the start button and suddenly career over a cliff. Rant off.

So the first step is to remove whatever cowling/fairing you have so you can access the wiring behind the headlights and then locate the auxiliary start relay.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
Okay then. Now remove the relay from the instrument cluster frame. This will require a screw driver to help pry the rubber boot over the guide.
[IMG][/IMG]
Then unplug the relay from the wiring harness connector socket.
[IMG][/IMG]
Now you need to make up a plug to replace the relay but with just two pins used and a shorting link. Now this is where the error in the wiring diagram in my manual comes in.

The diagram shows the coil wires as being one "re" (coming from the "start" button) and one "or" (coming from the "start/stop" switches). In fact, the "re" should be "ye" and comes from the diodes. The "or" is correct on the coil.

The other error then relates to the relay switch contact which is shown in the diagram as being one "re-wh" (going to the actual "start relay") and one "ye" (coming from the diodes). In fact, the "ye" should be "re" and comes from the "start" button.

So, if you want to update/correct the wiring diagram you simply swap the "ye" and "re" wires.

The link then is to short out the relay contact so goes between the "re-wh" and the "re" wires.
[IMG][/IMG]
You should get the idea from the pictures but let me know if you want better detail and I'll sketch the wiring up. Simply plug the shorting link plug into the standard wiring harness socket.
[IMG][/IMG]
You can see in the photo that the shorting link is across the red and the white/red wires while the yellow and the orange are left unconnected in the plug.
Now simply cable tie the plug/socket into the original instrument cluster frame location that the auxiliary start relay was mounted to.
[IMG][/IMG]
I hope this helps you out. It is easy and the crimp plug is a standard one that I had a dozen or so of in a crimp kit I bought years ago. General automotive accessory stuff. Have fun.
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:19 AM   #7
halfcab
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Let's make this easy. Forget about the safety junk for now.

I have a 01 LC4 E also...there are two wires made in to the main starter relay (not the large batt and starter power wire).

One wire is ground (-) and the other is a 12V (+) to engage the relay.

With the relay (-) wire grounded to the bolt on the frame. I would unplug the (+) wire and run a (test only) jumper wire from it to the (+) side of the batt.
When you take the jumper wire and touch the (+) on batt the starter relay should kick in and send power to the starter.

If the power wire to the starter is not hooked up you will (should) hear the starter relay click every time you touch the (+) on the batt. If the starter wire is hooked MAKE SURE THE BIKE IS NOT IN GEAR..!
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:19 PM   #8
ediehl OP
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Thanks a LOT! I thought I'd have to be taking the bike in to the shop for sure, but the help from the forum ---- especially JayBo1's detailed and easy to follow instructions for bypassing the extra relay, got my starter back in action. I didn't want to reinstall all those "safety" switches---just something more to malfunction, and if I was able to survive my teens without safety switches, I should do just fine now.

I do have one last quandary, though. I verified that the wiring would turn the starter over, and put it all back together, and then started cranking the starter to fire 'er up. It turned over and over, at a fair speed, I thought---but the engine wouldn't fire. I thought maybe I'd screwed something up, but when I switched back to kick-starting, it will start first or second kick every time. Even after warming the engine up, it still won't start when the starter's turning it over.

I couldn't find a connector to patch the red and red/white wires together where the connector attached to the secondary relay in the headlight nacelle, so being cheap and impatient, I just cut the connector off and soldered the two wires together, and just taped off the other two. That should be essentially the same as JayBo1's plug solution, I would think?

The only other possibility I can think of is the battery itself. It seems fine, and on a Battery Tender it goes green in just a few minutes, but it's old---supposedly the original (from a 2001 bike !?). It seems to turn the engine over OK, but I wonder if it's just not sparking enough while it's working on spinning? Any other thoughts?

One last mostly unrelated and minor issue is the neutral indicator light. I have the orphan wire that screws onto a connector near the front sprocket, but I don't see anyplace to connect it to the wiring under the tank. Probably part of the moderately complex wiring harness coming from the sidestand switch, I'm guessing, which is history. Oh well...
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Old 01-05-2008, 05:03 PM   #9
JayBo1
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Quote:
I just cut the connector off and soldered the two wires together, and just taped off the other two. That should be essentially the same as JayBo1's plug solution, I would think?
Yep, that'll do fine. The fact that the starter motor is running when you press the start button tells you that the auxiliary start relay has been successfully bypassed. It wouldn't turn the starter otherwise. It sounds like you're winding the motor over but its not firing. I guess there's a possibility that the starter is drawing the battery down so much that there's not enough juice left to create a spark. I'd definetely try a different battery or jumper from another one as a test. Do you have the headlight switched off wheile trying to start?
Quote:
I have the orphan wire that screws onto a connector near the front sprocket, but I don't see anyplace to connect it to the wiring under the tank. Probably part of the moderately complex wiring harness coming from the sidestand switch, I'm guessing, which is history.
My wiring diagram shows a plug with three wires from the Neutral/First/Second position switch. If you have a single orphan wire, can you let me know what colour it is? I'm guessing it will be green/black but from what I can figure all it does is provide neutral indication on the dash. (It's other purpose as an interlock has been bypassed).
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:32 AM   #10
ediehl OP
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Yep, my little orphan wire is green/black, with a little 'horse-shoe' shaped connector at one end that looks like it would slide under the little philips head screw near the countershaft sprocket, and then the other end, about 2' away, has what looks like a female push-in connector followed by a second such connector a couple inches further on. I'd like to get my neutral indicator functioning again, but it's no show-stopper.

I'm going to try to round up a new battery today, keeping my fingers crossed. Even if it seems OK, 7 years is an OLD battery and deserves permanent rest.
Thanks again, Eric
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:10 AM   #11
JayBo1
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Quote:
Yep, my little orphan wire is green/black, with a little 'horse-shoe' shaped connector at one end that looks like it would slide under the little philips head screw near the countershaft sprocket, and then the other end, about 2' away, has what looks like a female push-in connector followed by a second such connector a couple inches further on. I'd like to get my neutral indicator functioning again, but it's no show-stopper.
Cool. That wire is the Neutral one. Basically the Neutral switch takes the wire to chassis ground so all you need to do is get that wire connected to the Neutral switch and the other end needs to end up going to the dash display unit. There will be a split going to a diode behind the headlight mask but don't worry about that one. (You've already bypassed the aux relay see ).
I reckon a new battery will see you happy. I get tired after 7 years so I can't be surpised if your battery feels the same way.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:43 AM   #12
ediehl OP
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Took a longish road ride with some friends yesterday, and a couple times demo'd how the starter would turn the motor over pretty quickly, but no firing. Everybody thought that was odd and that there must be something else wrong. A little dejected, after a long drone home I shut 'er down in the garage, and just for the heck of it tried one more time. Bang! Started right up! Tried it a few more times, no problem, but this AM it's back to turning over briskly, but no ignition. Seems odd that it can turn the motor over that briskly and still not spark, but I've got the new battery charging now, and hopefully that'll do it!

SO that one green wire just goes from the little connector screw down by the sprocket directly to the neutral indicator light? Do you know what color wire to look for in the headlight nacelle?

Thanks again, Eric
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:53 AM   #13
JayBo1
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Well, to me the fact that it has started from the button means it should again. Probably the day of riding put enough charge in to let it start immediately after but after sitting a night it couldn't do it again. Still seems weird to me but hey, that's the way it goes sometimes. I can't see anything about the ignition circuit that makes the starter motor any different from the kickstarter. Hmmm. I wonder if the starter clutch is related to this issue? I don't know much those but there's another recent thread of someone having a problem with that. I think it related to a horrible noise while cranking so maybe no relation, but maybe your's has gone past the horrible noise stage and is now just not turning the crank over?

The wiring diagram shows that wire colour being maintained right to the dash display unit. I don't know if the 640E uses the same dash unit as the 640A though. If there's a green/black wire going into the instrument then that'll be it I guess. Good luck.
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:41 PM   #14
lhark
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I notice my '02 LC4E shows a capacitor in the system. Is it possible this has an effect on current for the ignition circuit, when you're using the e-start?
Once the aux starter relay is jumpered, what other wiring, diodes, switches, etc. can be eliminated? I mean, wouldn't it be nice to jumper the red, to red/white, somewhere else in the harness, and eliminate the wires from the ignition switch to the aux. relay? Plus any other extra wires that won't be necessary, (side stand relay, side stand switch, associated wires). I can't be the only guy that thinks there's way too much wiring on these things......I've already tossed the winkers, and relay, and about ready to pull the wires out of the harness for those.
Crazy?
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:00 AM   #15
JayBo1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhark
I notice my '02 LC4E shows a capacitor in the system. Is it possible this has an effect on current for the ignition circuit, when you're using the e-start?
Once the aux starter relay is jumpered, what other wiring, diodes, switches, etc. can be eliminated? I mean, wouldn't it be nice to jumper the red, to red/white, somewhere else in the harness, and eliminate the wires from the ignition switch to the aux. relay? Plus any other extra wires that won't be necessary, (side stand relay, side stand switch, associated wires). I can't be the only guy that thinks there's way too much wiring on these things......I've already tossed the winkers, and relay, and about ready to pull the wires out of the harness for those.
Crazy?
The capacitor holds a DC charge to keep the clock in the instrument panel ticking along it's merry path to oblivion and also to possibly protect the instrument panel from "spikes" when plugging accessories into the accessory socket. I doubt it can have any affect on the electric starting only.

There sure is plenty of extraneous crap in the wiring but how far you go to remove stuff is up to you. For my own case I want the bike to be returned to "sellable in standard trim" one day ("only used twice by current owner" ) but also need to find the balance with "reliable for Safari race conditions". For me this means minimising intrusion in the wiring loom, where the potential for increasing the risk of problems is greatest, while also minimising the extraneous crap that can also cause problems. I have achieved this by replacing most of the front end wiring loom plugs with soldered in waterproof Deustch plugs/sockets, bypassing the aux relay and removing the clutch switch, the sidestand switch and the aux relay itself. I will shortly also be removing the ignition switch (I would hate to have the ignition switch barrel self destruct during the Safari) and replacing it with a marine toggle switch on the Rally cockpit dash. (Taking most of my cues from the factory 690's). Shortly before the Safari I will also remove the "winkers" and flasher relay but that'll about be it.

Quote:
but I've got the new battery charging now, and hopefully that'll do it!
So how are you making out there Eric? Got the old girl sorted and firing up on the button?
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