WANTED: Lower Front Mount

[Concho]

Does anyone have one of these, or something similar,
laying around that they would be willing to part with?
I would prefer black or painted as opposed to chrome.

The lower front mount in the Universal Kit isn't deep
enough so that I can get my chair level. Any info would
be appreciated. I have written Motorvation regarding parts
but haven't received any answer to date.

Thanks for looking!

[claude]

If you want to talk to Motorvation try calling them at 800 305-3664. They are great to talk to and will no doubt help you out quickly.
I assume you have a Formula II? If so there were two different frame s for these. this may requirte a different cross tube for the mounts to be in the right place. You may ber abel to get by without this modification but it will take a very long member like you pictured. The member to ;get by ; with shoudl not be at the 70 degree angle but 90 degrees. It will have a lot of leverage working on it and may be apt to rotate in th ecross tube. If this is th ecase some have put a bolt down through the cross tube to secure it. Not th ebest system but can work.
If you want to fabricate the pieces or maybe better yet modify what you have it is not a difficult job.
Can we assume the current pinch block portion is okay as is?
If so the more vertical part may be 1 1/2" od. If it is 1 1/2" x .120 you can cut it into two pieces and put a 'slug' made of 1 1/4" od inside of it with another piece of 1 1/2" od tubing over the slug. Leave a small space between the pieces for weldng . Weld the parts together and then grind smooth. You can also drill a hole in the outside pieces before assembly and plug weld to the slug if desired. Or both. Note if the pinch block is actually 1 3/4" od then drop the members down one size from what I listed above. Any welding shop shoudl be abel to do this in short order. The finished product will be stronger than the original.
Just some food for thought.

[Concho]

Originally Posted by claude

If you want to talk to Motorvation try calling them at 800 305-3664. They are great to talk to and will no doubt help you out quickly.
I assume you have a Formula II?

Their web pages say to email for information regarding mounting parts,
however they still have failed to respond to my email. I'm profoundly
deaf and don't do telephone.

The tug is a VTX1300 which sits quite low and the "Universal" lower front
mount supplied with the Velorex sidecar doesn't have enough elevation to
get the chair level. This adjustable mounting should provide what I need.

Lonnie Cook, Northwest Sidecars has responded to my wanted post and
has the parts I requested.

Thanks for the response.

[claude]

When you said you were contacting Motorvation I assumed you had a Motorvation sidecar. Sorry about that.

You will be in good hands with Lonnie. I just saw your post and Lonnie's reply at sidecar.com.

The Velorex may be a little light for that VTX. You might want to ask Lonnie about that . He probably has about as much experience with Velorex sidecars as anyone out there.

[Concho]

Originally Posted by claude

When you said you were sontacting Motorvation I assumed you had a Motorvation sidecar. Sorry about that.
You will be in good hands with Lonnie.

Motorvation is the only supplier I found with illustrations of mounting
components and who offer them for sale to buyers, even though you
didn't buy their sidecars.

I attempted to buy a complete mounting kit from Dauntless, however
they refused to sell me the custom built subframe/mounting system
for a VTX1300 based on their opinion that a Velorex was a bad choice
for the bike. The reason given was that someone up in that area of
the country with the same combination had a fatality with the rig. The
mounts or equipment didn't fail but the pilot did in crossing over into
the other lane on a curve. Their loss of a $500.00 sale.

They recommended sending the Velorex back as it was too light for
the bike and purchasing a sidecar from them which was of equal
weight to that of the Velorex. A hell of a way to do business, IMHO.

In viewing Lonnies photo albums, I feel he knows his Velorex sidecars.

Thanks again for the help.

[claude]

Again, I would see what Lonnie says about the combination you are working on. The newer 565 Velorex sidecars are heavier than the older 562s and 700s and also have the larger spindles and a better shock.
Jay's comment on crossing the centerline was probably related directly to a rig that had too light a sidecar on it and possibly an inexperienced rider. This can be a bad combination.
If you have an older Velorex you will be up against light weight and also a suspension that isn't going to do you any favors in left hand turns. This can be overcome but not without some modifications.
Yes, a wider track width will help stability in left handers but the suspension may still be an issue in lefties.
Oh and on the Velorex sidecars the lower rear mount on the sidecar frame is known to slip if not placed just right to discourage it. Try to install it so no 'hinge' effect is possible. Some have pinned the pinch block to the frame and /or welded it after the rig was set up initially. If you do not wan tto do this it is still a good idea to at least put some reference marks on the pinch block and also the sidecar frame itself. That way if it does move you can see that it did early on and move it back to where it was easily.
Say hello to Lonnie from Claude and tell him the seats fit good. He will know what you are talking about.
Not trying to be difficult here just trying to help.

[Concho]

Originally Posted by claude

Again, I would see what Lonnie says about the combination you are working on. The newer 565 Velorex sidecars are heavier than the older 562s and 700s and also have the larger spindles and a better shock.

In Lonnie's photo album, there is a photo of a VTX1800 fitted with
a Velorex and I also know of another lady who has vtx1300 and a
Velorex. Idealy, I would like to have another tug, however the VTX
was bought and paid for when I decided to make the jump.

The sidecar is a 2007 model 563, supposedly built on the heavier duty
model 565 frame. I also have the seat removed and 100# of lead in the
seat area as recommended for newbies. I fully intend on having certain
mounts tack welded when I finally get it set up to my satisfaction. Once
I feel confident enough I will remove the lead and put the seat back in.
I would welcome suggestions on how to weight the frame. My lead is
in the form of 10# diving weights but I'm at loss as to how to contain
them and secure the weight to the frame.

[claude]

As far as ballast goes inside the body be sure to check and see if the lower portion of the body is plastic or fiberglass. The plastic bottom sections have been known to break due to ballast moving around etc..
Put inside ballst behind the seat..never in the nose!
If you get the rig working well there is no urgency to remove the ballast. Heck all ballast is is making a light sidecar heavier. If you have a sidecar that is a little too light for a bike and if the suspension etc can handle the additional weight just ride the thing and be happy. Some may hint about some kind of deal that they are a better sidecarist due to running a lighter car....just smile and let them glory in their fantasies. When they can't keep up with you in the twisties you can smile some more..lol.
As far as permanent ballast goes we usualy add it to the frame itself in various manners. We actually have plated a lot of velorex frame with one sheet of steel for some applications but Probably the most straight forward and simpilest thing to do is to bolt weight to the sidecar frame itself. On a Velorex you can use u bolts around the frame to hold the ballast in place. For bolt on ballast we usualy pour a piece of square tubing with lead and bolt it on with u bolts. Note that if you have never worked with molten lead it can be dangerous. No water or moisture can be anywhere around it as it will cause a huge reaction like an explosion....fun meter reading is zero. Discarded wheel weights are cheap and readily available to melt down. You can also fill the tube with lead birdshot which packs well and is much less dangerous.
You want to ballast to be toward the rear and not the front. We usualy bolt it around the rear frame tube outboard as far as possible or along the right side frame tube or a little of both.
Another maybe easier thing to do is just get a thick piece of steel that has some weight to it and lay it on top of the frame tubes and u bolt it in place. It can be placed on an angle betwen the rear frame tube and the right side one.
Note that you mentioned welding mounts. The only one that may be a concern is the pinch block on the lower rear mount at the sidecar frame. The others shoudl be fine.
I know you will have more leverage possibly working on the new lower front mount than normal but it still shoudl be okay if you have good triangulation with the other three mounts.
At some point you may want to convert to a car battery. If so that is good ballast also.

You may want google Sidestrider and possibly get with Doug Bingham as he is closer to you if you need some input.He has also dealt with Velorex for years.

[claude]

Concho,
Looled at your website and that is a very noce looking rig you have there. The newer updadted and beefed up frame etc are a lot better than the older versions.
Thought the following pictures may be of interest to you. I am not knocking Velorex as they are a nice sidecar and give you a lot of bang for the buck. I am also not saying you will have problems but when a small sidecar is placed on a larger bike issues can come up. The older versions are more of a concern than the newer ones.
On the left is an example of one frame we beefed up with plating the frame as I referred to ealrier. It was installed on a Moto Guzzi. Also it was converted to a car tire, torsion suspension etc.
Upper right shows a system that one European rigger uses to beef up the frame.
Below that is a pic of a frame that was recently broken. The break happened due to a slight impact. Note that the crack is where the end of the front mount or 'J' bar was. This was on a VTX.
The lower right shows a picture of a bent threaded rod. This was on a Guzzi and I do not know the details.

[Concho]

Originally Posted by claude

Concho,

Thought the following pictures may be of interest to you. I am not knocking Velorex as they are a nice sidecar and give you a lot of bang for the buck. I am also not saying you will have problems but when a small sidecar is placed on a larger bike issues can come up. The older versions are more of a concern than the newer ones.

Thanks for the pictures, I'll be sure to keep an eye out for problems such as
you describe. I don't intend to stress the rig with vigorous useage as at my
age (71) I've had enough racing through the twisties and lane splitting. I do
however, plan a trip or two if my health holds out

Originally Posted by claude

Below that is a pic of a frame that was recently broken. The break happened due to a slight impact. Note that the crack is where the end of the front mount or 'J' bar was. This was on a VTX.

I have to wonder if that's Gail's rig as she just sent me an email telling me
that her frame was cracked in the very same place.

Thanks for the responses.

[claude]

Yes that picture of the broken frame was Gail's. She had sent me a picture after her blooper. They plan to plate the frame now. She said she could use a little more weight for the sidecar anyhow.

One thing I didn't mention but possibly Lonnie did. The motorvation part that goes inside the frame tube will be 1 1/4" in diameter and not 1 3/6" as you labeled your diagram. Actually the part you have is probably a metric size close to 1 3/16 or a direct conversion size.
You can turn down the motorvation piece if need be. If you do so I would suggest putting another piece of material inside of it. Not sure what Motorvation's wall thickness is but if it is .120 a piece of 1" od will fit fine. If you plug weld it you'll be in good shape. I think if you look close at the velorex 'J' bar that you are replacing you will find it is turned down slightly where it goes into the frame.

Just a comment here. You had written in reference to Dauntless:
>>The reason given was that someone up in that area of
the country with the same combination had a fatality with the rig. The
mounts or equipment didn't fail but the pilot did in crossing over into
the other lane on a curve. Their loss of a $500.00 sale.

They recommended sending the Velorex back as it was too light for
the bike and purchasing a sidecar from them which was of equal
weight to that of the Velorex. A hell of a way to do business, IMHO.<<

Comment:
Not saying either way but the decision made by Dauntless may have been done in what they felt was your best interest. Note that Dauntless does sell Velorex sidecars also. The 'to light' could have refered to the sidecar frame and not the overall weight of the sidecar. Knowing Jay I doubt if he would want to pass up a 500 dollar sale as you mentioned...LOL. No foul just thinking out loud.

[Concho]

Originally Posted by claude

Yes that picture of the broken frame was Gail's. She had sent me a picture after her blooper. They plan to plate the frame now. She said she could use a little more weight for the sidecar anyhow.

One thing I didn't mention but possibly Lonnie did. The motorvation part that goes inside the frame tube will be 1 1/4" in diameter and not 1 3/6" as you labeled your diagram. Actually the part you have is probably a metric size close to 1 3/16 or a direct conversion size.
You can turn down the motorvation piece if need be. If you do so I would suggest putting another piece of material inside of it. Not sure what Motorvation's wall thickness is but if it is .120 a piece of 1" od will fit fine. If you plug weld it you'll be in good shape. I think if you look close at the velorex 'J' bar that you are replacing you will find it is turned down slightly where it goes into the frame.

I'll take a good look at inserting a strenghening member inside the piece.
The "J" bar inside the frame on Gail's failure saved it from collapsing.

Originally Posted by claude

Just a comment here. You had written in reference to Dauntless.

The suggestion to return the Velorex and buy a sidecar of equal weight
from them is what struck me as poor salesmanship. Actually they did me
a favor, I didn't spend $500.00 for their mounts.

[claude]

Concho wrote:
>>>I'll take a good look at inserting a strenghening member inside the piece.
The "J" bar inside the frame on Gail's failure saved it from collapsing.<<<

Gail had writen in her email to me:
>>I think J bar ends right about where the crack is - the crack is also faithful to the triangular pieces used for bracing and bolting . pinch bolts for J
Bar are on right.<<

If the 'J' bar had extended farther into the frame rail maybe the frame tube woudl have not broken or maybe it woudl have broken in a place farther along the tube. Only speculation.