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Old 02-22-2009, 10:02 PM   #5296
fmfpunk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h8chains

....it's time to enjoy riding as matured and adult people....
Crap! I guess i can't ride w/ y'all anymore.... Ha!
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:12 PM   #5297
CCer
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my 2 cents: i am completely responsible for how i ride and the results. there are many good suggestions here but the way i see it, there needs a balance between doing things that bring down the risks and the joy of getting on a bike and riding fast.

i'll listen to and often take the advice of those who offer it, but i reserve the right to occasionally ride on the edge. i know that getting hurt can ruin the day of those who ride with me, so i try to keep risks to a minimum.

my skills are rusty and as i've learned in trying to pick up other sports that i once excelled at, i can't do everything i once did, nowhere close. i definately pushed it more than i should have yesterday. I plan to adjust my riding accordingly but still scare myself on occasion.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:21 PM   #5298
xymotic
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This whole ordeal has really got me thinking.

I sure hope you guys heal up soon. CCer I don't feel so bad for "almost" scratching your bike anymore! Dayum!

Were ether of the shoulder injury guys wearing pressure suits?

When I went out with you guys I had a couple of coming to terms with jesus moments. I felt good having survived, but you're right that we need to appreciate the seriousness a little bit.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:25 PM   #5299
cribaby
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(Posted by Joel) i'm thankful to whoever brought the tow strap, let me know who so i can return it.

Joel
Great rr. That tow strap would be mine, put it in your bag and use it until we hook up on another ride or at Dezert skills to be Tested camp out. I hope your bikes fix turns out to be something simple and cheap.

Charlie
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:03 PM   #5300
notmybikemodelname
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h8chains
i hate to see our rides get ran by motocross junkies (sort of).
Is this what it has come down to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by h8chains
there should be a solution to this. i like sito and trailtrick's idea. if a ride is going to be a tough one...let it be then and announce it in advance. if you're in doubt if you could fit in, pm the ride leader and get his response. meanwhile, ride leader should know all the riders enough to exclude the ones who would be challenged.
I believe that's what was done. I don't think I misled anyone. It appears to me that some people just did not get the memos (see below). It worries me when some people post things like "...don't want to read through all of this, so whats the plan..." or "...blah, blah, blah, where are we meeting..." I think if people are not capable of reading the ride plan, maybe they should not go. This would be much better than deciding to blame the ride leader or faster riders later for their own actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
This will be a long day (350+ miles) consisting of beginner flat fire roads, and fast riding loose pack two track roads, to single track, dry lake beds, to sand washes, to loose pack hill climbs. I don't plan on being home until after 7 or 8 pm..
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
...some of the terrain is definitely NOT GS-able...
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
...As for two riding groups, the slower ones can hit the slab after Randsburg and meet at the brewery. Some might even want to take some of the outs on the first section and hit some slab to meet the rest in Randsburg.
I suggested this twice yesterday

Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
Caveat



This looks to be rounding out to be a good ride. However, let me put a few things out there. This ride is probably not for you if:
  1. Your bike is not capable of going at least 100 miles on a tank of gas
  2. You are not capable of riding 300 miles of dirt in one day.
  3. You're not willing to get up before dark to make the meet at Lytle Creek and leave at sun up.
  4. You plan on being home in time for dinner
  5. Your sand skills are lacking
  6. Your bike won't go at least 70mph for more than a sprint
  7. Your bike is not mechanically fit
  8. You don't like beer (except for Joel)
  9. You refuse to do any sweeping duties
  10. You don't realize that there will be some breakdowns and you're not willing to wait for the rest or lend aid.
  11. You have hard panniers on your bike.
  12. You're not prepared to do whatever it takes to make sure that every gets home in relatively good condition.
Other than that, the regular rules of group riding will apply . If you don't know what those are, you probably should wait for the RR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
Everything changes on a long ride when you add more than four or five people. With 12, it takes a lot of ...................Well as Gregg Wannabe says, "it's like herding cats"
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowwhat
Hey Rob....Welcome home.....

We couldn't do a simple 35 miles this weekend with 13 riders on SCD without losing a rider... .....

What do you think about breaking into 2 groups?....

I am really looking forward to this ride again....




Probably will, because some won't be able to do the whole thing in the dirt. There are escape routes
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
As I look at the interested parties I believe that we will have to initiate some "go arounds" and slab sections for the slower riders and smaller bikes in order to make the complete loop in one day.

I want everyone who is interested to do this ride. It will show some of you who have never done this ride that there is a wide open desert right outside your back door without going to DV. This ride will contain some mountain road sections in the first part from Lytle Creek and the section from Randsburg Rd to Robber's Roost. It will also have sand washes, dry lakes, smooth and Faaaaaaaaaaaaaast fire and access roads, woops, and unfortunately some slab.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
The question one should ask him/herself is, "Am I capable of riding technical sections after drinking some frosty barley pops".
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
Don't discount the powerlines. I've nearly pee'd myself on this stuff. A couple of places the road just drops out from underneath you..........and you're usually doing 70+ at these points. I've bottomed out harder than ever here. Typically, these roads are very loose packed and if you don't watch yourself carnage happens. Best way to avoid it is 70+mph. There's also some very tight turns in areas you would not expect to find them, with burm shots.




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Old 02-23-2009, 07:34 AM   #5301
grinder96
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Considering my schedule never lets me join the Saturday rides I am a Sunday church rider! I'll chime in anyway.

1. Large groups (8+) should break into smaller (3-5 )more equally skilled groups.

2. As mentioned wait at forks and dangers to let the next rider know.

3. Ride with in your limits- this one is hard because egos, adrenaline, atmosphere and cameras all contribute to lack of good judgment in a split second decision. Thats where skill comes in to save your ass. The better riders have a better chance of "saving it". The newer riders need the "oh sh!t" experience to better themselves.

With all that said it sounds like we need to think about the previously mentioned ride rating system so we don't have ride leaders deciding who should go. That decision should be up to each rider if they feel confident or want to be challenged.

Rob, did not come across to me that anyone was saying you did a bad lead. Sounds like you planned well and had plenty of warnings.

My 2 cents for now.
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:48 AM   #5302
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I agree about the ride rating system needing to be used. Advanced, Intermediate & Beginner(Noob). Also big bike friendly or not. This to me would have been an intermediate ride, Trailtricks ride a couple of weeks ago would have been a little more to the advanced side with the rocky/hilly terrain. We will figure it out.
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:51 AM   #5303
terranova
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Rob, you said all the right things at the beginning and at various points in the threat. Everybody has to take responsibility for knowing their own skill level and be aware of the risks involved. You spelled it out clearly from the beginning, which is why i chose to camp and meet you guys for lunch in Randsburg. If i had wanted the challenge that your ride offered, then i wouldn't blame you if i had any mishaps--especially since you were offering go arounds and alternate routes.

I don't think anyone is blaming you. Most are thankful that guys like you are putting in the effort to organize the rides. I think that the real issue here is how to accommodate both fast and slow riders on the same ride.
There are different ways that ride leaders can handle the range of skills and riding styles for large groups like the one you had.

1. Laissez-faire: Give everyone a copy of a map of the route and say "good luck, hope to see you in Randsburg for lunch." This would satisfy the moto-darwinists need for racing and competition . . .

2. Divide and Conquer: After riding a piece of terrain and waiting for the rest of the group to catch up, the ride leader could make the determination as to which riders are going to be on the "A team", and which ones should be in a slower group or take the easy way to pre-determined destination. Both groups would have a sweep, and would be there for each other in case aid was needed.

3. One size fits all: The ride leader can try to keep the entire group together on the same ride. This means not only waiting for the slow ones, but also implementing a system of waiting at any crossroads until the sweep arrives.

There are probably variations of the above leading styles, and advantages and disadvantages to each (depending on the rider). But we should all be honest and straight forward about what kind of riding we would like to do, and how this affects others. As a slow and fairly cautious rider, i can understand if the fast riders sometimes want to "do their own ride" and have the slow ones do their own ride, and perhaps meet up at some eating/drinking destination. I see it as favor to us noobs, when the fast ones volunteer to "look after" us and offer pointers, I think that many of them are happy to do it, with a "more the merrier" spirit, and they want to help build the local ADV community.

Of course, when the fast rider agrees to ride with noobs, he is morally obligated to wait up, help out and offer aid when needed. But i don't think they are selfish if they want to do a fast ride, or segment of a ride, especially if the group is large. I can understand if they need some time off from the constant responsibility and obligation of riding with noobs. I think we can work this one out if we put our minds to it . . .
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:57 AM   #5304
notmybikemodelname
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzlvr
I agree about the ride rating system needing to be used. Advanced, Intermediate & Beginner(Noob). Also big bike friendly or not. This to me would have been an intermediate ride, Trailtricks ride a couple of weeks ago would have been a little more to the advanced side with the rocky/hilly terrain. We will figure it out.
First thing that needs to happen is that each ridere needs to sit down and have a one-on-one themselves and agree what level they ride at. Until that happens, the rating system will never work, because everyone always thinks they're much more capable than than they really are. On needs to realize what level they are capable of riding in the worst of conditions, not during the full day.

Unfortunately some of the events of the day kept us from some of the advanced stuff I had planned. Hence the need at points to do some cross country to try to catch up with our schedule.

At the point that we reach the south end of Cuddeback, I had planned on a highly advanced off-camber hill climb traverse that wraps around Fremont Peak that the intermediate and noobs could've witnessed from a safe distance on the floor of the dry lake bed. We also missed Surprise Canyon climb out the North wall. Quite a few other things.

I'm glad some of you had a good time and that the victims are healing.

So:
  1. I'm sorry people got injured and others want to point fingers
  2. I'm sorry I didn't get us to the advanced stuff
  3. I'm sorry John's bike smells like beer and he had stay up late licking it.
If I owe anyone else an apology, let me know and I'll add it to the list.

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Old 02-23-2009, 09:05 AM   #5305
johngil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
If I owe anyone else an apology, let me know and I'll add it to the list.
My bike smells like beer.(Tecate)
I stayed up late licking it. Now I'm tired.

Again, great job.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:12 AM   #5306
notmybikemodelname
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johngil
My bike smells like beer.(Tecate)
I stayed up late licking it. Now I'm tired.

Again, great job.
See my post above.

Thanks for hauling my beer after what I personally consider to be one the worst accidents of the day. (jk)
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:19 AM   #5307
RAZR
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as Turin said above, i am a ride leader of sunday church rides but i have ridden with a few of the weekend riders and i hear all the suggestions.


i feel that we are all grown adults and we can make up our own decisions.

ADV has always been a place for me to meet other riders and i enjoy the fact that there are guys that are better than me so i can excel, and i can push the noobs a little.

as far as "mapping" out a ride. if we charge money for the time and paper of these maps that we could hand out, we would turn these rides into an organized ride similar to D37 rides.

BUT i thought these rides were casual.

i'm not into ANY rules on rides.

of course, COMMON SENSE is just that.
if you don't have it, don't ride.

wait for the guy behind you, and help a brother out if he breaks down.

but to say we need to ride at 75% of your ability. that doesn't make sense.

yes, the groups are getting WAY too big.
breaking into 2 or 3 groups is a good idea, and the guys just need to be honest with themselves and rate themselves.

i stick with the words of a great rider....................


LET'S RIDE ! ! !
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:31 AM   #5308
cribaby
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[quote=h8chains] i hate to see our rides get ran by motocross junkies (sort of).

FYI - the ratio of converted dirt bikes (plated) on saturday's ride was 1 dirt bike to 6 adv style bikes. 2 of them rode mid pack most of the ride and I rode sweep 2/3 of the way from kramer j to randsburg.

I can't wait for a motorcross junkies kind of ride. Nothing but riding sand wash/single track just to get you to the rocky hill climbs. (of course plenty of stops for beer if you can keep them depressed tecate cans from commiting suicide on power line roads).


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Old 02-23-2009, 10:52 AM   #5309
traveltoad
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I wasn't on this ride. But I don't think any finger pointing is appropriate.

I agree with NMBMN that the ride was spelled out and that everyone who showed should have (or could have if they wanted) known what to expect in terms of dificulty.

IMO, the problem started with trying to make a single multi-level ride with a lot of riders of differing skill levels. Difficult rides should be difficult rides and easy rides easy. If a rider is unsure of his/her riding ability for a certain ride a few questions for the ride planner should be able to sort it out. Different level rides can meet at common places for lunch or whatever but (IMO) they should be separate rides.

That said, everyone who rides knows the risks. These risks exist no matter your skill level and no matter the trail difficulty. Those risks are our own. The ride is too fast? slow down. Too hard? turn around (after telling someone). I don't even really like people being called ride "leader" as it can have implications of someone being in "charge".

If someone knows an area and wants to share that area with others in the group then all any of us can ask is an accurate description of the difficulty and the time needed. As has been pointed out previously, we are all adults and can make our own decisions.

As an aside... even techinically easy trails can be very challenging when part of a very long day of riding. Mental stamina and skill comes into play much more on long riders.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:59 AM   #5310
Artboy57
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I agree you need to be honest with yourself about your skill level. Read the ride description and ask questions of the organizer. Everyone will have a better time. It hurts to admit it to myself , but sometimes I'm better off just turning around and riding the go-around. No shame in that. OK, maybe a little..
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