ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Regional forums > West – California, the desert southwest and whatever is left
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-23-2009, 10:06 AM   #5311
Artboy57
Slave to THE MOUSE
 
Artboy57's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Location: BEE-yoo-tee-ful Eagle Rock, CA
Oddometer: 690
By the way, I couldn't make it all the way to Angeles Forest on SCD yesterday, got stuck in the snow about 4 miles past the Ranger station/BPL turnoff. A guy in a jeep helped me turn the bike around (he had turned around too!) Just an update.
Artboy57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 10:23 AM   #5312
Nowwhat
I'll Go Second...
 
Nowwhat's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: On the Ground Laughing
Oddometer: 4,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
So:
  1. I'm sorry people got injured and others want to point fingers
  2. I'm sorry I didn't get us to the advanced stuff
  3. I'm sorry John's bike smells like beer and he had stay up late licking it.
If I owe anyone else an apology, let me know and I'll add it to the list.
Rob....

I don't see why you would need to apologize for anything.....other than the beer....

We were all a victim of our own excitement....this ride just got big....lesson learned.....we break the group up next time...

I love riding with the advance guys.....I learn something new each ride...Cribaby sure does make it look easy......and Yzlvr proves that the big KTMs can run....

I was vague in my last post for that I am sorry....

This was Rob's ride and therefore he was the one who needed to keep the group moving...in my opinion that means when Ben got hurt...someone other than Rob should have volunteered to ride out with Roundstock until Ben was loaded up....

now where are we riding next?
Nowwhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 10:36 AM   #5313
traveltoad
Aaron S
 
traveltoad's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2002
Location: San Fernando Valley
Oddometer: 6,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowwhat
now where are we riding next?
Back on track! I like it!
traveltoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 11:02 AM   #5314
trailtrick
goat trail rider
 
trailtrick's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: socal
Oddometer: 3,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzlvr
I agree about the ride rating system needing to be used. Advanced, Intermediate & Beginner(Noob). Also big bike friendly or not. This to me would have been an intermediate ride, Trailtricks ride a couple of weeks ago would have been a little more to the advanced side with the rocky/hilly terrain. We will figure it out.
You have a point ,and for me that ride was a walk in the park ,beginner ride
__________________
"Vive tus sueños en vida, no la vida en sueños.

Kampale Moto Ranch
Bed and Breakfast
mototours/uruguay south america
trailtrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 11:18 AM   #5315
trailtrick
goat trail rider
 
trailtrick's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: socal
Oddometer: 3,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
First thing that needs to happen is that each ridere needs to sit down and have a one-on-one themselves and agree what level they ride at. Until that happens, the rating system will never work, because everyone always thinks they're much more capable than than they really are. On needs to realize what level they are capable of riding in the worst of conditions, not during the full day.

Unfortunately some of the events of the day kept us from some of the advanced stuff I had planned. Hence the need at points to do some cross country to try to catch up with our schedule.

At the point that we reach the south end of Cuddeback, I had planned on a highly advanced off-camber hill climb traverse that wraps around Fremont Peak that the intermediate and noobs could've witnessed from a safe distance on the floor of the dry lake bed. We also missed Surprise Canyon climb out the North wall. Quite a few other things.

I'm glad some of you had a good time and that the victims are healing.

So:
  1. I'm sorry people got injured and others want to point fingers
  2. I'm sorry I didn't get us to the advanced stuff
  3. I'm sorry John's bike smells like beer and he had stay up late licking it.
If I owe anyone else an apology, let me know and I'll add it to the list.
I not think you did anything wrong ,you post the rules in the beggining .But you shut never spill all that beer on the desert with out proccesing it first
__________________
"Vive tus sueños en vida, no la vida en sueños.

Kampale Moto Ranch
Bed and Breakfast
mototours/uruguay south america
trailtrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:03 PM   #5316
notmybikemodelname
KOTW is a myth!
 
notmybikemodelname's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: I'm in jail Dad, and I like it here.............
Oddometer: 7,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailtrick
I not think you did anything wrong ,you post the rules in the beggining .But you shut never spill all that beer on the desert with out proccesing it first
I agree Javier on the difficulty level, we neve made it to the advanced stuff.

I don't think I did anything wrong either, but everyone needs a scapegoat. I'm a giver, much like Jesus, but without the crown of thorns and the swimmers build. Also, I can only turn wine into piss, not water

Does get me thinking about one thing though. Sometime, some asshole is going to go on one of these rides and hurt himself and then decide to sue someone. Not to say that he'd win, but some schyster attorney would undoubtedly take the case and it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend yourself. This brings up two last points:
  1. I will never lead a ride again, but I will go riding with a group of people I know and trust and show then some of my favorite riding areas.
  2. I will always carry a shovel, because you never know when you're going to need to bury a body to avoid litigation
Edit: 3. Always bury the attorney(s) at the beginning of the ride to keep him/them from giving anyone else any ideas
notmybikemodelname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:19 PM   #5317
mcnut
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Bakersfield CA & Sammamish WA
Oddometer: 1,354
Eh? Best wishes to the injured

I have not been on one of the LA rides yet. To early/to far (Bakersfield) for a lazy pussy like me. Then, finally a LA group ride in by backyard!

I elected not to go based on the detailed description posted early on. I think there were plenty of warnings including the shear number wanting in.

The size of the group can quickly become an issue. This ride I believe was conceived as a single group ride. There were many posts that suggested it had grown quite large and diverse and there was talk of dividing into 3 much small groups based on skill & equipment. Although suggested again day of the ride, doesn't sound like this happened.

Bruce

mcnut screwed with this post 02-23-2009 at 01:00 PM
mcnut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:32 PM   #5318
NSFW OP
ktm's "the tourist"
 
NSFW's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Burbank CA
Oddometer: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
I agree Javier on the difficulty level, we neve made it to the advanced stuff.

I don't think I did anything wrong either, but everyone needs a scapegoat. I'm a giver, much like Jesus, but without the crown of thorns and the swimmers build. Also, I can only turn wine into piss, not water

Does get me thinking about one thing though. Sometime, some asshole is going to go on one of these rides and hurt himself and then decide to sue someone. Not to say that he'd win, but some schyster attorney would undoubtedly take the case and it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend yourself. This brings up two last points:
  1. I will never lead a ride again, but I will go riding with a group of people I know and trust and show then some of my favorite riding areas.
  2. I will always carry a shovel, because you never know when you're going to need to bury a body to avoid litigation

come on rob, we only have a few guys in our group who are leaders, and you're one of them. no one should point a finger to anyone who spent a lot of his personal time to organize a ride so that many can enjoy it.

the injury over the weekend has nothing to do with you or your plan. partly, i'm at fault for opening a new issue about "avoiding accidents and injuries", which i should have done after the dust settled down.

one of the 2 best rides i had was under your direction. should i say 1.5 since i didn't finish the ride..

don't give up dude, the bottom line, the majority appreciate our effort as ride organizers. on this ride, i observed that you are more caring, checking out on everyone, asked me several times if i'm ok, went on your own to find an easy trail for spafxer to tow me. dang dude! you have improved and you have my trust (though i need a gpx route too... ). it was also a relief to see you stashed your beers in johngil's panniers which mean you have to wait for him..

the same with trailtrick mojave ride...i may be a little skeered during the ride, but when i got home, i was thankful i did it. i was joking when i said he wanted to kill me and xymotic...
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:33 PM   #5319
terranova
slow and steady
 
terranova's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Santa Monica
Oddometer: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by notmybikemodelname
  1. I will never lead a ride again
Is this what it comes to? I hope there's a better solution!
terranova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 12:52 PM   #5320
NSFW OP
ktm's "the tourist"
 
NSFW's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Burbank CA
Oddometer: 15,880
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZR
but to say we need to ride at 75% of your ability. that doesn't make sense.
what i meant is one should not push too hard and using everything he/she has. save some to finish the ride and in emergencies or when taking unplanned actions.

in a familiar terrain one can get away giving 100% or when big $ or life is at stake.

why do people die in angeles crest? basically they use 100% of their skills (or they think they have) going into the corners just to find out it has a diminishing radius or an oncoming car crossing the yellow line.

this advice was given to me by a friend who is a professional motorcycle racer.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 01:00 PM   #5321
Doghouse_Riley
Wannabe Adventure Tourer
 
Doghouse_Riley's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: The Second, CA
Oddometer: 2,019
I got to chime in here with a recommendation.

"Deep Survival" by Laurence Gonzales

Basically it is an analysis of who lives, who dies and why in a survival situation. It is very germane to the current conversation.

The most important thing I'm getting from the book for us is that when we ride we need to have a plan but we need to be able to modify the plan on the fly as conditions change.

I opted out of last Saturday's ride because of the group size and diversity of skill level. IMHO, the large group rides have a nasty domino effect where noobs get bashed up trying to keep up with the advanced riders which slows everything down. Then everybody is running late so that by the end of the day when guys are tired and/or buzzed and pushing hard to complete the planned ride there are the nastier accidents. This is the type of thing where, as the book "Deep Survival" points out, it's not if there's going be a bad accident, it's when. We need to do what we can to mitigate the when but also be fully prepared to deal with a serious accident.
__________________
Ciao
Doghouse

Canis meus id comedit.
Doghouse_Riley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #5322
sito
Where the Hell am I?
 
sito's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Glendora CA
Oddometer: 1,527
Wow what happened? I'm going blind reading all this stuff!

Lets go over the facts:
1. know-one is going to get sued (unless you start charging people to ride with you.) Two friends go riding and one get hurt you can you sue your friend? no! Riding in a big group like Sat's ride just means you have a lot more friends!

2. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous! You will crash and you will get hurt. It's not if just when.

3. Personal responsibility. We all come out on these rides knowing that it's dangerous and you could possibly get hurt. That's why 90% of us love this sport and it's a hell of a lot fun. It pushes most of us out of our comfort zone and challenges us. That being said it does not give you a Lic. to just throw caution to wind and ride like a crazy man running the Dakar. I personally try to ride a safe ride and keep the ass puckering to a minimum. But that does not mean I won't get hurt. My friend broke his leg just unloading his bike once!

I started riding with ADV riders because I felt safe knowing I was riding with a group of rides that had my same interest and respect for the sport and would ultimately look out for each other. And after riding some 2+ years with the guys I know they have my back as well as I have theirs. We are a small tight group of people looking out for each other to insure we all have a good time and make it home safe. It is not a "Ride Leaders" responsibility to make you ride safe, It's yours. If you decide to go on a ride it's your responsibility to know what you are getting into! I think the Ride leader needs to let you know what's coming and what to expect. (Like Rob did) and you then make the choice of what's best for you.

Both riders that crashed were not bad riders. The course was not that difficult, any noobie could have made it, only the speeds add a big skill level change. But you had the choice to ramp it up or down. These 2 crashes could have happen on any ride and will continue to keep happening. How we handle them in the future it another topic! (We are like the Rangers we leave no man behind)

I do feel that some ride do have some limitations a 200 to 300 mile trip with a group that large is hard to pull off. 8 is about the max IMO. After that it is like "herding cats". To many things can happen. Bikes break! tires go flat, backpack catch on fire and all the beer pours out. Sometime plans have to change for the betterment of the group or sometime just one individual. Not all rides will make it to the end. No big deal there will always be new rides. Friendship and people are more important.

IMO we got off to a late start and were pushing hard to trying a make up time and miles. I did have some concerns that we were not doing enough leap froging for the slower bikes. This puts a lot of pressure on the slower guys to keep up or get lost!. I lost the group for awhile and I was mid pack? It was also hard on Rob because he was the only one with a clear understanding of where we were going. That makes it hard to make changes and split up.

I say we all just learn from the experience and more on to new and better rides. All the people I have meet have been great. All the rides I have done were all great experiences. Can't wait for the next one!
__________________
I'm a GPS Wizard follow me?
sito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #5323
sito
Where the Hell am I?
 
sito's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Glendora CA
Oddometer: 1,527
Wow what happened? I'm going blind reading all this stuff!

Lets go over the facts:
1. know-one is going to get sued (unless you start charging people to ride with you.) Two friends go riding and one get hurt you can you sue your friend? no! Riding in a big group like Sat's ride just means you have a lot more friends!

2. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous! You will crash and you will get hurt. It's not if just when.

3. Personal responsibility. We all come out on these rides knowing that it's dangerous and you could possibly get hurt. That's why 90% of us love this sport and it's a hell of a lot fun. It pushes most of us out of our comfort zone and challenges us. That being said it does not give you a Lic. to just throw caution to wind and ride like a crazy man running the Dakar. I personally try to ride a safe ride and keep the ass puckering to a minimum. But that does not mean I won't get hurt. My friend broke his leg just unloading his bike once!

I started riding with ADV riders because I felt safe knowing I was riding with a group of rides that had my same interest and respect for the sport and would ultimately look out for each other. And after riding some 2+ years with the guys I know they have my back as well as I have theirs. We are a small tight group of people looking out for each other to insure we all have a good time and make it home safe. It is not a "Ride Leaders" responsibility to make you ride safe, It's yours. If you decide to go on a ride it's your responsibility to know what you are getting into! I think the Ride leader needs to let you know what's coming and what to expect. (Like Rob did) and you then make the choice of what's best for you.

Both riders that crashed were not bad riders. The course was not that difficult, any noobie could have made it, only the speeds add a big skill level change. But you had the choice to ramp it up or down. These 2 crashes could have happen on any ride and will continue to keep happening. How we handle them in the future it another topic! (We are like the Rangers we leave no man behind)

I do feel that some ride do have some limitations a 200 to 300 mile trip with a group that large is hard to pull off. 8 is about the max IMO. After that it is like "herding cats". To many things can happen. Bikes break! tires go flat, backpack catch on fire and all the beer pours out. Sometime plans have to change for the betterment of the group or sometime just one individual. Not all rides will make it to the end. No big deal there will always be new rides. Friendship and people are more important.

IMO we got off to a late start and were pushing hard to trying a make up time and miles. I did have some concerns that we were not doing enough leap froging for the slower bikes. This puts a lot of pressure on the slower guys to keep up or get lost!. I lost the group for awhile and I was mid pack? It was also hard on Rob because he was the only one with a clear understanding of where we were going. That makes it hard to make changes and split up.

I say we all just learn from the experience and more on to new and better rides. All the people I have meet have been great. All the rides I have done were all great experiences. Can't wait for the next one!
__________________
I'm a GPS Wizard follow me?
sito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:14 PM   #5324
NSFW OP
ktm's "the tourist"
 
NSFW's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Burbank CA
Oddometer: 15,880
i think we got a lot of inputs that we can move forward and create guidelines for our rides which i will post later.

Again, just want to make it clear that this discussion is about “Preventing or Minimizing Accidents and Injury”. We’re not here to criticize others but use the mistakes of the past to help us move forward and spend more time on the saddle than in the care of someone else.

Keep in mind, if we get hurt (and we will get hurt) these are the consequences:
1) Bad news for the rider, even worse when you get separated from the rest and there’s no available help.
2) The whole family gets hurt too and will have impact on their daily lives.
2) You will burden your buddy and others to get you out; possibility of them getting hurt too.
3) The ride gets screwed up; acceptable to my standard since this is an adventure ride.

I myself don’t like “Rules”, and to use such word, we have to police our own rides; and nobody wants that! Let’s avoid using “Common Sense” as the governing action; that works when you’re still in control but still could fail; then at the end of the day when you’re stressed out, there’s a great chance the mind and body will malfunction.

Some people find the word “rules” to be “negative” because

1) It limits their freedom and movement
2) Takes the fun out of riding
3) They still think they are free to do anything
4) They don’t give a fuck about everything!

So let’s use the word “guidelines” which could mean
1) Course of action
2) Strategy
3) Plan

What is the L.A. Weekend Group Ride?

This is a ride you don’t have to pay. All we want is you’re willingness to help and be there for others. But there are some who use this as a recon or security blanket; they will go ride with us at the start, however they will do their own ride, and seldom interact with the rest. They are there for the routes, and possibly use us in emergencies.

This is a gathering of riders with one common purpose…not just ride and challenge ourselves, but to meet others who have the same interest, share skills, learn from others, develop some kind of bond and trust, and get to see different places. Drinking beer (sometime it’s free) and nice lunch or dinner are benefits, not the objective.

Believe me there is security in number and you will need it when participating in a sport or adventure with lots of risks involved. Also, participating in a group ride means you have to be responsible for the guy behind you and giving up selfish motives or personal needs.

Another purpose is we want you to come home in 1 piece, kiss your kids/love ones; continue making mortgage payment/keep the house and come to work on the following Monday without jeopardizing your employment or source of income so you may be able to ride again the following weekend; get to buy replacement parts you broke; get more motorcycle accessories and gear.



NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2009, 02:27 PM   #5325
notmybikemodelname
KOTW is a myth!
 
notmybikemodelname's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: I'm in jail Dad, and I like it here.............
Oddometer: 7,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by sito
Wow what happened? I'm going blind reading all this stuff!

Lets go over the facts:
1. know-one is going to get sued (unless you start charging people to ride with you.) Two friends go riding and one get hurt you can you sue your friend? no! Riding in a big group like Sat's ride just means you have a lot more friends!

2. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous! You will crash and you will get hurt. It's not if just when.

3. Personal responsibility. We all come out on these rides knowing that it's dangerous and you could possibly get hurt. That's why 90% of us love this sport and it's a hell of a lot fun. It pushes most of us out of our comfort zone and challenges us. That being said it does not give you a Lic. to just throw caution to wind and ride like a crazy man running the Dakar. I personally try to ride a safe ride and keep the ass puckering to a minimum. But that does not mean I won't get hurt. My friend broke his leg just unloading his bike once!

I started riding with ADV riders because I felt safe knowing I was riding with a group of rides that had my same interest and respect for the sport and would ultimately look out for each other. And after riding some 2+ years with the guys I know they have my back as well as I have theirs. We are a small tight group of people looking out for each other to insure we all have a good time and make it home safe. It is not a "Ride Leaders" responsibility to make you ride safe, It's yours. If you decide to go on a ride it's your responsibility to know what you are getting into! I think the Ride leader needs to let you know what's coming and what to expect. (Like Rob did) and you then make the choice of what's best for you.

Both riders that crashed were not bad riders. The course was not that difficult, any noobie could have made it, only the speeds add a big skill level change. But you had the choice to ramp it up or down. These 2 crashes could have happen on any ride and will continue to keep happening. How we handle them in the future it another topic! (We are like the Rangers we leave no man behind)

I do feel that some ride do have some limitations a 200 to 300 mile trip with a group that large is hard to pull off. 8 is about the max IMO. After that it is like "herding cats". To many things can happen. Bikes break! tires go flat, backpack catch on fire and all the beer pours out. Sometime plans have to change for the betterment of the group or sometime just one individual. Not all rides will make it to the end. No big deal there will always be new rides. Friendship and people are more important.

IMO we got off to a late start and were pushing hard to trying a make up time and miles. I did have some concerns that we were not doing enough leap froging for the slower bikes. This puts a lot of pressure on the slower guys to keep up or get lost!. I lost the group for awhile and I was mid pack? It was also hard on Rob because he was the only one with a clear understanding of where we were going. That makes it hard to make changes and split up.

I say we all just learn from the experience and more on to new and better rides. All the people I have meet have been great. All the rides I have done were all great experiences. Can't wait for the next one!
+1

It's not whether you can successfully be sued, it's the money that would be spent defending yourself. Being an insurance broker gives me a very clear insight as to how slimey attorneys can be and what they'd be willing to take as a claim . This fits within their realm, without a doubt.

Sito, "...That being said it does not give you a Lic. to just throw caution to wind and ride like a crazy man running the Dakar..."
You mean the race, not the motorcycle?
notmybikemodelname is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014