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Old 04-02-2008, 12:30 PM   #16
charliemik
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Man, you're just havin' too much fun. I wish I had time for as many projects. I can only manage one at a time. I've gotta finish the resto on my old G/S before I can even think about starting in on my RS.

I've not done this but I've read many a warning. Be extra careful in replacing the clutch carrier (technically it's not a flywheel on the later RSs). Apparently the entire crankshaft can shift forward causing untold grief when you go to start the engine later. I've read of people using a rag bunched up in front of the crank gear and putting on the front cover (sounds sketchy to me) or bolting a block of wood across the crank gear to restrain it. I would definitely leave the clutch carrier on to keep the crank restrained while removing the timing gear.

Also, I don't think you mentioned anything about the swing arm bearings. On a bike with 100K + miles on it, I'd just replace them. They're pretty cheap (by BMW standards anyway). It can be a bear getting the races out. I had a local motorcycle shop pull mine in exchange for a nice, crisp $10 bill. I put the new races in the freezer for a bit and they tapped in easily with an appropriately sized socket and hammer.
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Old 04-02-2008, 05:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datchew
while it's open, it's very easy to pull off the pistons and check the connecting rod bearings.

pull the lifters out with a magnet and look at the cam lobes. If all is peachy keen, I'd just put it back together.
To do that correctly, don't I need to be able to measure the crank and check the clearence with a plastigage? Should I just pull it and make sure it's clean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemik
Man, you're just havin' too much fun. I wish I had time for as many projects. I can only manage one at a time. I've gotta finish the resto on my old G/S before I can even think about starting in on my RS.

I've not done this but I've read many a warning. Be extra careful in replacing the clutch carrier (technically it's not a flywheel on the later RSs). Apparently the entire crankshaft can shift forward causing untold grief when you go to start the engine later. I've read of people using a rag bunched up in front of the crank gear and putting on the front cover (sounds sketchy to me) or bolting a block of wood across the crank gear to restrain it. I would definitely leave the clutch carrier on to keep the crank restrained while removing the timing gear.

Also, I don't think you mentioned anything about the swing arm bearings. On a bike with 100K + miles on it, I'd just replace them. They're pretty cheap (by BMW standards anyway). It can be a bear getting the races out. I had a local motorcycle shop pull mine in exchange for a nice, crisp $10 bill. I put the new races in the freezer for a bit and they tapped in easily with an appropriately sized socket and hammer.
Thanks for the warning about the crank. I've read (and need to reread) Snowbum's article about blocking the crank. I'm thinking I'll put a tapered hole in a 2x4 this weekend and put bungie's on it. I haven't heard about cramming rags in the front cover.

On your suggestion, I checked the swingarm bearings tonight: left one is gone. Good call.

I gotta order some parts or the airhead's progress is gonna stall. I gotta quite working through lunch. It's having a negative impact on my motorcycling.
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photomd
To do that correctly, don't I need to be able to measure the crank and check the clearence with a plastigage? Should I just pull it and make sure it's clean?

Technically, yeah, I suppose. But I've taken 3 of these motors apart to balance them (Connecting rods, pistons. Made a big difference on one, marginal on the others but, heck, can't hurt). One of 'em was 160K mile motor and the bearing shells still looked great and the crank journals showed no visible scoring or wear. So, I bought new bearings just for grins and put 'em back together. No problems. I did measure the rod ends to check for roundness and tolerance and they were fine. A local BMW mechanic told me he's checked hundreds of 'em and, unless somebody let the inside of their motor get dirty, he never saw a crank that needed any machining. Even with a couple a hundred thousand miles on 'em. The bottom ends of these motors are truly bomb proof.
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'81 R100RS
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photomd
Welp, I got the clutch out tonight and all the marks are lined up at 6:00.
I've always thought this bike had more vibration that it should. I wonder if this is one cause.



I've also got oil that is smeared in the bottom. I can turn the flywheel and see oil coming from the oilpump cover. Looks like I'm pulling the flywheel. Anymore thoughts on replacing the rear main seal while I'm in there?

On a positive note, I could measure the clutch properly...its 5.74mm.
Do you meant the factory marks are lined up? I bet that would cause some vibration.

I think the best crank-blocking technique I've heard of is to make a 3/4" long bolt to fit in the nose of the crank, and then put the front cover back on. The bolt should be long enough to just keep the cover from seating.
I think this was a snowbum jig.

I've not replaced a main seal, but hell as long as the oil puump is getting looked at, Do it. $40 for a mainseal puller, unless you can borrow one from the ADV Braintrust?

So the actual clutch disc itself is 5.7mm? thats good, I think low spec is 4.5
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:41 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemik
Technically, yeah, I suppose. But I've taken 3 of these motors apart to balance them (Connecting rods, pistons. Made a big difference on one, marginal on the others but, heck, can't hurt). One of 'em was 160K mile motor and the bearing shells still looked great and the crank journals showed no visible scoring or wear. So, I bought new bearings just for grins and put 'em back together. No problems. I did measure the rod ends to check for roundness and tolerance and they were fine. A local BMW mechanic told me he's checked hundreds of 'em and, unless somebody let the inside of their motor get dirty, he never saw a crank that needed any machining. Even with a couple a hundred thousand miles on 'em. The bottom ends of these motors are truly bomb proof.

Agreed.

They only make two sizes of bearing shells, so your crank has to be pretty far out to require the Upsize. When I measured mine at 93K, it had almost no wear. PLastiguage would be the correct deal, though.

Of course get new con-rod bolts if you do this.

I might just look at them, and if they look good and feel good just button it back together.
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:49 PM   #21
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for getting rings back in, I got a ring compressor from Advance auto parts or someplace. Its about 4" deep and large enough to go around the piston, with a ratcheting head to tighten down. So I use the ratcheting bit to find the appropriate circumferential pressure to let the rings slide in, but not the compressor, and I keep pushing the piston down and in. Its fiddly, and I find it works good if your girlfriend has nimble fingers and she can do it.

For the pushrod seals I put a little motor oil on the engine side, and a little grease, white lithium or something on the head side. you want the pushrodtube to be able to grow and shrink and not stick to the seal.
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Old 04-06-2008, 04:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemik
Technically, yeah, I suppose. But I've taken 3 of these motors apart to balance them (Connecting rods, pistons. Made a big difference on one, marginal on the others but, heck, can't hurt). One of 'em was 160K mile motor and the bearing shells still looked great and the crank journals showed no visible scoring or wear. So, I bought new bearings just for grins and put 'em back together. No problems. I did measure the rod ends to check for roundness and tolerance and they were fine. A local BMW mechanic told me he's checked hundreds of 'em and, unless somebody let the inside of their motor get dirty, he never saw a crank that needed any machining. Even with a couple a hundred thousand miles on 'em. The bottom ends of these motors are truly bomb proof.
Good to know. If my lifters are any indicaiton, the bottom end is good. They look brand new. I don't think I'll open that can of worms.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand

I think the best crank-blocking technique I've heard of is to make a 3/4" long bolt to fit in the nose of the crank, and then put the front cover back on. The bolt should be long enough to just keep the cover from seating.
I think this was a snowbum jig.

I've not replaced a main seal, but hell as long as the oil puump is getting looked at, Do it. $40 for a mainseal puller, unless you can borrow one from the ADV Braintrust?

So the actual clutch disc itself is 5.7mm? thats good, I think low spec is 4.5
That sounds like the easiest way to block it. I'll do the cam chain first then pull the flywheel after the time chain cover is back in place.

I'm also gonna go for the rear main seal. I'm there, so I might as well.

Now I'm waiting for tools from Cycle Works...man, I love tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
for getting rings back in, I got a ring compressor from Advance auto parts or someplace. Its about 4" deep and large enough to go around the piston, with a ratcheting head to tighten down. So I use the ratcheting bit to find the appropriate circumferential pressure to let the rings slide in, but not the compressor, and I keep pushing the piston down and in. Its fiddly, and I find it works good if your girlfriend has nimble fingers and she can do it.

For the pushrod seals I put a little motor oil on the engine side, and a little grease, white lithium or something on the head side. you want the pushrodtube to be able to grow and shrink and not stick to the seal.
I just bought this ring compressor set. Did I mention I love tools?

Good to know about the pushrod seals. Would a little break caliper grease work?

That brings up another point. According to the Haynes manual, I'm supposed to put some special grease where the clutch spring touches the flywheel and the carrier. Can I use a smear of brake caliper grease or use some of the Honda Moly I have?

Thanks for the advice.

As for this weekends progress, I'm cleaning parts a packing up the tranny and heads to send out. Then it's place a big order, keep cleaning parts and then maybe start fiddling with a Guzzi a bit.
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Old 04-06-2008, 05:37 PM   #23
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I think Moly is more appropriate, but pretty much any bearing or axle grease that wont fling off and contaminate the clutch.
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Old 04-14-2008, 05:24 PM   #24
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So I placed a big order. I'd like to say THE big order, but for some reason, I can't ever get it right on one order. Oh well.

So now the cylinders are clean and after reading too much, I've measured the bore and pistons three...maybe it's four times. At least I've done it enough that now I get the same measurements. I need to quit rereading Snowbum's site, Duane Asherman's site or Stagehand's thread. They make me paranoid.

Then I muster the courage, buy a three jaw puller and decide to pull the crank sprocket. First I hook it all up, put some tension on sprocket and start heating the bearing and sprocket; more tension, more heat, rinse, lather, repeat. Finally my cheap puller gives up the ghost. Cheap cast jaws snap.



I figure I can return my "lifetime warranty" puller later. I turn the jaw around to use the other side. I hook it all up again and repeat the pattern. Then I hear another pop. The casting around the threads crack.



So I return the puller for a refund, and think my next move. I decide to come home, read this site as well as others. As chance would have it, my neighbor who is a bigger tool whore than me comes over to chat. He sees what I'm doing and says "I picked up a nice older puller at an estate sale last summer. Let's see if it works." Cool.

It's old and rusty, but hooks right up. We put tension on it, heat, repeat. It's not budging. So he leaves me the puller and I go eat dinner. I come back and put more tension on it and get the heat gun ready. Then POP! Lo and behold the bearing and sprocket moved forward. I put some heat on it and start pulling. Off she comes.



Now I just have to clean up the crank and wait for the right sprocket to show up. This will give me more time to prep the gasket areas, finish cleaning the engine case and plot my next move. I hope to button up the timing case, block the crank and pull the flywheel...er I mean clutch carrier next.

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Old 04-14-2008, 05:33 PM   #25
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Did you pull the bearing and the sprocket separately? It may have been easier to do one at time. I dont know, I did mine that way, and I think we went to the same puller store.

Upon re-intstall: I do know that we heated the new sprocket up quite a bit. It was in an oven at 270deg for quite a while, and then was hit with MAPP gas until it popped right onto the crank. It was untouchably hot.

What are you getting for piston and cylinder measurements?


PS- for putting pistons in cylinders, turns out I'm the tool.
I suck at it. I'd need to do maybe 50-60 more to get good at it. Only 56 to go.
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Old 04-15-2008, 05:52 AM   #26
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For re-installing the sprocket, I'm planning on putting a camp stove next to the bike, heat a pan of oil to around 250, then pull it out and stick it on. My worry is that I'll need to tap it home. There's not much room with the engine in place. Is it easier to pull the engine and set it on the ground with a pad, face up? I dunno, I might try the install in the frame and if it fails, pull the engine out...not like there's much holding it at this point.

I don't remember my measurements off the top of my head. It was more like measure, go look in manual, yep, looks good.

You've also touched on another concern: installing the pistons and rings. I had this pipe dream of using a ring compressor, but the more I think about it, I've had trouble with compressors on bikes before. I keep forgeting about that taper on the bottom of the bore. I guess I could buy the BMW part, but I'll probably just eBay my ring compressor and do it by hand. It's just the thought of slapping the pistons into the bore like a v-8 small block seems very appealing. However, it's only two pistons and if I take my time, it won't be a big deal.

So you posting pictures of you going over the triple this weekend?

Posted for a little inspiration.

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Old 04-17-2008, 09:45 AM   #27
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand
Did you pull the bearing and the sprocket separately? It may have been easier to do one at time. I dont know, I did mine that way, and I think we went to the same puller store.

Upon re-intstall: I do know that we heated the new sprocket up quite a bit. It was in an oven at 270deg for quite a while, and then was hit with MAPP gas until it popped right onto the crank. It was untouchably hot.

What are you getting for piston and cylinder measurements?


PS- for putting pistons in cylinders, turns out I'm the tool.
I suck at it. I'd need to do maybe 50-60 more to get good at it. Only 56 to go.
Stagehand,

Can I pick your brain about the particulars of putting the crank sprocket back in place?

From what I've read, I can heat it in an oil bath to the upper 200's F, pull out and stick it on and lightly tap it home, but I'm worried it won't full seat. Did y'all just keep heating it with MAPP until it slid on? Did you have to tap it a few times to get it seated? Thanks for your help.
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Old 04-17-2008, 10:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photomd
Stagehand,

Can I pick your brain about the particulars of putting the crank sprocket back in place?

From what I've read, I can heat it in an oil bath to the upper 200's F, pull out and stick it on and lightly tap it home, but I'm worried it won't full seat. Did y'all just keep heating it with MAPP until it slid on? Did you have to tap it a few times to get it seated? Thanks for your help.
The oven made a really nice easy clean way to get to 270F. Its not that oily, new, so it doesn't stink up a nice kitchen appliance oil would work I suppose, but that seems messy to me.
Didnt need to tap it home, that I recall. It just popped right on, bobs your uncle or something like that
I wished I'd seen the crank nose bearing go on, but it was a similar MAPP gas situation. I dont believe we oven'd the bearing, but I cant remember.

Dont heat it while its on the crank, that will only heat up the crank, too. I forget, your engine is still in the case. We were able to turn the motor face up. We would heat it and put it on to see if it dropped. If not, take it off and heat it until it did. It either went all the way down or it didnt go on, as I recall.

You could put a zipock bag full of Ice draped across the cranknose for a while, too, to cool it down prior to installing the sprocket.

So Oven (or oil) to high 200's, then Mapp gas it to the finish.

Hope that helps
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Old 04-18-2008, 05:33 PM   #29
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Bluhduh

Dammit!

I read all the stuff, double checked parts and still screwed it up!

I'm trying to get the cam chain sprocket on. I get my oil, camp stove and sprocket all going. I even bought a meat thermometer good to 300 something degrees. I start heating , measuring and watching.



The first two times I didn't line up the key very well. So I pull it off with the puller and the third time it goes within an 1/8 of an inch of being seated and stops...with a vengance. A little tap here, apply heat there with a heat gun and it's going no where. So I heat with a heat gun again and start pulling. Only this time I can't get the pull behind the sprocket. I have to pull on (what I hope) is the base of the teeth.

Then the puller slips and chips a tooth off. Crap. So I'll order more parts tomorrow...all part of learning I guess. So should I just start with the oil bath, try to put it on, and then hitting it with the Mapp torch before tapping it down? Putting a torch in there kinda worries me...maybe I should pull the engine and set it on the floor.

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Old 04-18-2008, 05:51 PM   #30
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Man, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope for both our sakes its not me leading you down a blind path.

I agree/dont think you should torch it on the crank- I think it would just heat the crank up. I wonder why the thing just stopped.. maybe the key shifted a bit?

Are you pre-cooling the crank?

Pulling the motor seems extreme. I don't think a heat gun has the nuts. Need big heavy gloves.

I'm still climbing my learning curve. damn its steep here
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