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Old 04-24-2008, 05:57 AM   #61
mark1305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caponerd
I'm coming to this party pretty late...

I've never heard about all this shim stuff before. When I bought my R100 about 10 years ago, the only thing I heard was warnings of the dire consequences of installing the oil filter backwards. In fact, my bike had a replacement engine installed some years before I got it for that very reason.
Later, a friend had bought an R75/7 and ruined the engine after an oil change. The cause was found to be a stack of paper gaskets under the cover. Previous owners had never bothered to remove the old gaskets, just installing a new one on top of the old ones. I have no idea how anyone allowed that to happen!
I've never had a problem with mine, I just replace all the parts that come with the new filter, in the order in which I removed them. The only concern I have is getting it put together with the exhaust pipe in place, which I understand is why they went to the hinged in the middle filter. I gave up on that and just pull my exhaust system apart every time I change the filter. It seems too easy to lose track of the various parts in there when trying to slide the cover with oil cooler plumbing on it into place.

So, my question is; how is it possible to ruin an engine even if you do screw things up so badly that you've got no oil pressure? Wouldn't the oil pressure light indicate that you've got something wrong down there, and give you time to shut the engine off before a disaster occurs?
Or does this system somehow have nothing to do with the oil pressure that's measured by the oil pressure sending unit?
To be honest, I have a hard time believing that this "issue" is all that critical. How could a company with a reputation like BMW's design an oil filter system that's this fraught with risk? Really.
The short answer to your question about why is this issue critical lies in the oiling path throughout the engine. If the white o-ring does not seal completely (or at least well enough), the system will still develop oil pressure, but instead of departing the filter chamber through the crank and cam bearings, the oil will escape directly from the filter chamber down to the sump.

You touched on it with the sentence about whether the sensor measures a "different" oil pressure.

The case of the damaged motor from stacked paper gaskets illustrates the problem - just the thickness of the extra gaskets under the cover unloaded the o-ring enough to allow the oil to escape back to the sump instead of being forced in sufficient quantities through the bearings.
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Old 04-24-2008, 06:31 AM   #62
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Laugh

Y'all got me worried with this. So, with my engine apart I pulled the cover/thermostat: 3.55mm-3.63mm. I need to reread Oak's article, but I think I'm good. I'd never read about this and just followed the manual for the oil change. Boy, am I glad everything was good.
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Old 04-24-2008, 07:33 AM   #63
caponerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark1305
The short answer to your question about why is this issue critical lies in the oiling path throughout the engine. If the white o-ring does not seal completely (or at least well enough), the system will still develop oil pressure, but instead of departing the filter chamber through the crank and cam bearings, the oil will escape directly from the filter chamber down to the sump.

You touched on it with the sentence about whether the sensor measures a "different" oil pressure.

The case of the damaged motor from stacked paper gaskets illustrates the problem - just the thickness of the extra gaskets under the cover unloaded the o-ring enough to allow the oil to escape back to the sump instead of being forced in sufficient quantities through the bearings.
Thank you for the explanation. I've mentioned the idea that the idiot light should warn you of this before, and nobody's ever said the pressure loss won't be detected, let alone, why.
In the case of my friend's R75, when he bought the bike, everything was fine. It was his own fault for what happened; that one extra gasket was enough to push it over the edge. However, I can now think of him as a bit less of an idiot for ignoring the idiot light.
But, regarding my secondary, somewhat unasked question; is this really that critical assuming you always follow the correct assembly and replace all the old parts with new every time? I've been changing my filter every 3000 miles for a good 40,000 miles now, so I've done it 12 or 13 times without a problem. My o-rings always looked slightly squished when I take them out, so I only buy the oil filter "kit" with replacements for all the parts.
Should I be going in there with a depth gauge or something and checking it every time?
If the dimensions are different from one oil change to the next, what's moving in there?
I still can't believe that BMW would have designed a system that requires careful measurement and shimming to do a proper oil change.

Nevermind, I'm reading Anton's web page now.
Well, one question, why would the cannister move?
In other words, if what you have now works, is there a good reason to assume it needs to be checked?

caponerd screwed with this post 04-24-2008 at 07:52 AM
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:04 AM   #64
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In short -yes - the canisters are only now starting to move - Oak and Snoarse wrote their stuff years ago before this started to happen , and then they were writing about the early unlipped canisters which are fully seated and dont move.

This post is about now - not about 15 years ago, and you ignore it at your peril.

And, FWIW, in my experience a lot of what that pair have written is pure bukum, and can be confidently disregarded.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:13 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
And, FWIW, in my experience a lot of what that pair have written is pure bukum, and can be confidently disregarded.
Ah, but What exactly. Its all at your own peril, all the time.
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:39 AM   #66
caponerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
In short -yes - the canisters are only now starting to move - Oak and Snoarse wrote their stuff years ago before this started to happen , and then they were writing about the early unlipped canisters which are fully seated and dont move.

This post is about now - not about 15 years ago, and you ignore it at your peril.

And, FWIW, in my experience a lot of what that pair have written is pure bukum, and can be confidently disregarded.
I've noticed a bit of "bukum" in some technical articles. Don't know if it was one of those two, but the article about rebuilding Koni Shocks on airheads.org suggests "a pipe wrench and a lot of heat" to get one apart.
Aside from the fact that I don't see where applying a pipe wrench would actually help you get one of those apart, hadn't the guy who wrote the article ever heard of a "pin spanner"? Mine came apart quite easily using the same pin spanner that I bought to take apart the frame on my R69S.

Anyhow, at what point did the "early, unlipped cannister" get replaced by the lipped cannister? My bike is a 1982 R100RT. If it has the unlipped, cannister, then I don't need to worry about this?
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Old 04-24-2008, 10:37 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caponerd
Should I be going in there with a depth gauge or something and checking it every time?
I will be doing exactly that. But mine is "out" a bit.


Anton's fix seems the best resolution to be absolutely sure it's terminally kosher, but I don't have the means (or the $) to do that right now.

I'm of the opinion that with these type of things, there really is no final answer or absolute authority. Too many variables involved (age, treatment, assembly quality, planet alignment) to narrow it down.

I'm simply going to keep learning and try to make the beast run so I can enjoy it.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:56 AM   #68
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OK, with my service kit from Motobins I got a black 2000 oring......

It measures the same, 'CW says never reuse the white one....

What say ye....

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Old 05-10-2012, 12:49 PM   #69
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Mods?

Airheads,Please?
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Old 05-10-2012, 04:09 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camgregus View Post
Mods?

Airheads,Please?
Once I had measured mine and established that it was at the correct depth, I silver soldered a little tab onto the canister that butted up against the crankcase where it sits. This means that the canister cannot move into the crankcase any further.

I'll try to remember to take a photo at the weekend , I have a spare crankcase on which I can mock up the arrangement for a photo.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:55 PM   #71
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I've re-used the white ones before. But this is a touchy subject and I'm sure no one is willing to stick his neck out on this one. Why not install the black one you got in the kit, and if you're concerned about it, purchase some white ones to install later? It's easy enough getting in there and you won't be losing any oil swapping orings.

The white ones, once compressed, probably won't seal as well as before. And they're soft enough they can get nicked or damaged - so you'd have to inspect really close. Just use the new one.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:20 PM   #72
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I did use it. I just have the bike down for a few for a tune up and wanted to get all paranoid to make me order an o ring.........




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Old 09-06-2012, 05:35 AM   #73
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Not knowing about this issue before I did a filter change should I replace the filter whilst sorting out the o-ring?

Thankfully i've only done about 200meters and had the engine running for about 10mins prior.
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Old 09-06-2012, 05:54 AM   #74
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Nah. Just measure and figure out the combo of shims to get your o ring compressed properly and button it back up
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Old 09-06-2012, 06:00 AM   #75
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and i'm correct in assuming that I only need the white oring & shim because I don't have a cooler?
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