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Old 07-08-2008, 12:59 AM   #16
Airhead Wrangler OP
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No way, Jose

Quote:
Originally Posted by fat pat
cleaning/selling the st and buying a gs? you might end up ahead on the deal.
I don't want a GS though. I feel that the ST is a better foundation on which to build the bike that I want. Rather than a paralever I'd prefer the more reliable monolever. I just rode around in Alaska with a guy on a GSPD who destroyed the bearings connecting his final drive to his swingarm. Plus I don't want to worry about my universal joints developing play so quickly. I also am looking for the better fuel economy, more agile handling, shorter wheelbase, smoother and more overengineered engine (uses a lot of the same parts as the R100 engine and puts less stress on them).

So why not trade for an R80g/s then?

If I were to get a G/S I would probably:
A) still replace the forks as I hear they also aren't so great
B) want a tachometer
C) replace the rust-prone muffler (which is stainless on the ST)
D) upgrade the subframe. The G/S subframe is exactly the same as that of the ST.

I also like the fact that I know exactly what has happened to this bike for the overwhelming majority of its mileage. I know how its been treated. That fact alone might not REALLY be worth anything, but it does give you a good feeling.

I also just prefer the more classic look of the ST.

Not to diss G(/)Ss or anything, I do like them, they are badass, but this is how I rationalize what I'm planning to do to the ST and why I don't just sell this thing and buy a GS. (Fat pat, you're not the first person to ask me that. I had to justify it to myself a while ago.) I'd also rather build a bike than buy one.
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Old 07-08-2008, 03:28 AM   #17
Beemerboff
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The bearings on the paralever can be replaced with bronze bushes, and the UJs on the shaft replaced with improved items with grease nipples , and you have a bulletproof rear end for less than $600- .

The forks and front brake on the GS are a mile ahead of the GS.

Priced a fork and brake upgrade for your G/S yet?- that $600- could look like small change.

And my GS has OEM SS pipes and muffler.

And does a 60 hp engine producing 40hp stress an engine any more than a 50 hp engine producing 40 hp. Some folks might think it stresses it less.

But the real test comes when you ride them back to back - the paralever bikes are so far ahead there is just no comparison.

You owe it to yourself to try a sorted GS before you dismiss them out of hand - you will be surprised just how good they are.
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:02 PM   #18
Airhead Wrangler OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
The bearings on the paralever can be replaced with bronze bushes, and the UJs on the shaft replaced with improved items with grease nipples , and you have a bulletproof rear end for less than $600- .
Funny you should mention the bronze bushings. That's what my friend was running. He installed them on Vancouver island and 3500 miles later in the middle of Alaska one of them had worn all the way through. The races were actually kissing. That didn't impress me much. They must've been installed incorrectly to get eaten so quickly, but still. One of the airhead canons applies here - the simplest engineering solutions are the best. In my opinion, and that of many others, the paralever is an overly complex solution to a problem that never really existed in the first place. In my estimation I already have a bulletproof rear end - no $600 necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
The forks and front brake on the GS are a mile ahead of the GS.
No argument there, but I very well might use a GS front end on the ST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
Priced a fork and brake upgrade for your G/S yet?- that $600- could look like small change.
I'm looking at either a dr650 or R100gs front end which both can be had for under $600 if you know where to look. I know machinists that'll make me spacers free of charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
And does a 60 hp engine producing 40hp stress an engine any more than a 50 hp engine producing 40 hp. Some folks might think it stresses it less.
Well, I can't quite agree on this one. An engine making more power with the same components is not as strong. There's no getting around the physics of that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerboff
But the real test comes when you ride them back to back - the paralever bikes are so far ahead there is just no comparison.

You owe it to yourself to try a sorted GS before you dismiss them out of hand - you will be surprised just how good they are.
I did. I rode a GSPD with an ohlins rear shock and gold valves up front. Just didn't do it for me. I prefer the ST. I like having a smaller, lighter bike. I like the smoother running engine and better gas mileage as well.
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Old 07-08-2008, 05:40 PM   #19
Beemerboff
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You will find it hard to get your 19" wheel into GS forks - the spindle , width and brake cause problems which are hard to solve.

I have a set of K 75 forks which I intend fitting to my R75/7 , and my spoke wheel choices are 18" or 21".

If your top yoke concerns you some of the R65s had a cast item which fits, but it is not going to solve your spring / damping problem.

In my experience a harsh front can just as easily be caused by the wrong settings at the back as at the front - try a bit less spring and and damping at the rear

I have a Ohlins on the rear, and HPN Magnum catridge inserts and springs in the front. These work together just about perfectly at the stock settings for both, and both front and rear can be fine tuned on the move making finding that final sweet spot that bit easier.

I agree that the paralever is a soloution to a problem which does not exist, but it does perform better than the monoshock when set up properly.

It isnt a hand grenade - I upgraded mine at 140,000 KM as a precaution - there apeared to be plenty of life in the OEM components, I just dont like waiting on things to break.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:32 PM   #20
datchew
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Hi Spencer. Sounds like you know your airheads and have your decisions sorted out. Wish I could completely say that (either of them.)

Your spares leave me thinking of only 1 or 2 things you might want.
Spare rocker valve cover or something to repair them with.

You spoke of upgrading the front forks, but also that you rode a GS with a gold valve upgrade. If you liked the gold valve enough, are the GS and ST forks similar enough to put the gold valve in the ST forks?

+1 on the Valeo. The time involved to rebuild makes just buying a new one easier and worthwhile. They are lighter, crank faster, and use less juice than the bosch style and the new magnets are not glued, they are tension wired inside. Euromotoelectric sells them and also sells the enduralast alternator upgrade. I got the starter and have been pleased with their service.

I'm jealous of your adventures and am enjoying your smugmug pics.
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:23 PM   #21
Beemerboff
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YSS make a valve kit for the earlier forks .

The only place I have seen them for sale is on the Munch Motorcycles Site

They are in Perth Australia.

Not much information on the site but the YYS Australia site has all the information

Much cheaper than the Magnum inserts, but no reports of how they work yet.
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Old 07-08-2008, 11:09 PM   #22
Justinmarque
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Sub Frame Reinforcemnt

Not sure on Beemers I just bought my 1st a couple months ago. I rode a Honda XR650L from Nashville to the Panama Canal back in '03 and one of the best mods I did was to reinforce the subframe.

Again...not sure if the beemers have issues with this but with all the added weight of panniers/bags, etc....it may be useful.

La Paz -> Tierra del Fuego is next up for me!
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Old 12-24-2011, 11:59 AM   #23
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nice thread to revisit!!!
topic still pretty relevant if one is prepping a bike for touring
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhead Wrangler View Post
Funny you should mention the bronze bushings. That's what my friend was running. He installed them on Vancouver island and 3500 miles later in the middle of Alaska one of them had worn all the way through. The races were actually kissing. That didn't impress me much. They must've been installed incorrectly to get eaten so quickly, but still. One of the airhead canons applies here - the simplest engineering solutions are the best. In my opinion, and that of many others, the paralever is an overly complex solution to a problem that never really existed in the first place. In my estimation I already have a bulletproof rear end - no $600 necessary.


No argument there, but I very well might use a GS front end on the ST.



I'm looking at either a dr650 or R100gs front end which both can be had for under $600 if you know where to look. I know machinists that'll make me spacers free of charge.



Well, I can't quite agree on this one. An engine making more power with the same components is not as strong. There's no getting around the physics of that one.



I did. I rode a GSPD with an ohlins rear shock and gold valves up front. Just didn't do it for me. I prefer the ST. I like having a smaller, lighter bike. I like the smoother running engine and better gas mileage as well.
I am like you AW. Between the Paralever bearings wearing out in no time, a drive shaft with a rubber damper that is always going out and U-joints that are over stressed, a wheel base that is too long that creates even more cornering clearance issues, and a final drive input seal that is almost always leaking, I don't care for them. I suspect they are heavier too but I have never compared the two.

I heard from numerous different sources that those bronze Paralever bushings like Ted's sells do not work no matter how you set them up. It makes sense to me since the first time I saw them. They don't look like they would work at all to me. The last I heard on the phone is that they won't install them any more.

I don't think the GS forks are light years ahead of the ST forks unless you are considering travel. ST forks can easily be set up to dampen on par with GS forks.

Hand guards? I always run hand guards on my airheads and I have never ridden out of the lower 48.

The G/S's and ST's are so much lighter. Why have a bike that is decked out too heavy to do what it is decked out to do??

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Old 12-25-2011, 01:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supershaft View Post

I don't think the GS forks are light years ahead of the ST forks unless you are considering travel. ST forks can easily be set up to dampen on par with GS forks.
Not sure if dampening can be made on par w/ G/S forks but from my personal experience, stock or heavily modified w/ braces, springs, and gold valves, forks are like a wet noodle and just plain awful. No matter how much money spent on the G/S forks they're CRAP. I hate those damned things. GS forks are satisfactory w/ heavier springs and better with a gold valve.
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:54 PM   #26
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My experience (R80ST - R100GS & a lot of two up riding) is that the GS set up is a lot more rigid (less prone to twist).
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:30 PM   #27
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Supershaft got it right on the bronze bushes, if you spend a moment to examine the system simple geometry tells you they will never work, and they have been quietly withdrawn from sale.

The GS - G/S debate will never end , but folks that have both seem to favour their GS.

I dont notice any weight difference, which seems to be the main claimed advantage for the G/S, but I do notice the better forks, brakes, power, suspension, seat, and overall package.
If there is any additional weight in a GS it is in components that are simply not up to the job on the G/S.

The paralever is simply a better system, there is more to it than anti jacking.
It is all about the dynamics of a body in motion, but last time I tried to bring that into a suspension thread it got me kicked off the UKVFR forum, so I wont try here.

One you have converted the GS to a driveshaft with greaseable and replaceable joints, maintance costs will be around $100- every 150,000km or so, I figure I find I can accomodate within my limited superanuation bubget.

And if I cant if I skip one beer a month I will be able too.

Neither is in any shape or form a proper dirt bike - if that is what you want a cheap $500- Jap single, XT, DS , KLR, etc will do that job very much better at a fraction of the cost.
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Old 12-26-2011, 01:51 PM   #28
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Old 12-26-2011, 04:54 PM   #29
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Airhead Wrangler had a HUGE advantage of knowing exactly what condition his base mechanicals were in his given to him (lucky dog) R80ST with only 3,000 miles.

HPN lists both R80G/S and R80ST as acceptable bases for an HPN build.
going through almost exactly same thing prepping my R90S to tour the world.

much rather start with a R80G/S, but cannot find a low miles example without paying an arm and a leg. since my R90S started with 7,300 miles. just like Airhead Wrangler's R80ST. I know exactly where my R90S's mechanical condition is.

which is not say no prep is needed. ALL rubber is 37 years old with each and every critical rubber component replaced. for instance rear main seal is not leaking, but tranny is coming out soon so I can replace RMS and oil pump seal. etc.

tranny has to be split anyways so I can get at lubing splines. etc. LOTS more prep yet to go...
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:56 PM   #30
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The final drive/swingarm pivot bearings can self destruct quite suddenly - as quick as one ride can do it. That was my experience on my GS when I bought it. I used to do a daily check on the tightness of my rear end - mostly to check the integrity of the shaft. One day I noticed the back end was wandering around during a ride and sure enough the inner pivot bearing had let go. So what would I do? Pack another pair of bearings along with you as spares. I wouldn't worry about having to change out the outer race in the final drive if one of these lets go. The cages on these bearings are plastic and the inner race/bearings in cage assembly pops out of a new outer race like nothing at all. It's the cages that lets go resulting in the needle bearings doing their own thing. Just pop this assembly into the existing outer race and you are back in the race. As has been said many times before, these bearings are under designed for their purpose but they're still better than the bronze bushings.
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