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Old 10-27-2008, 12:31 PM   #31
configurationspace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biggziff
Didn't that guy that had over 400K on his GS only replace the clutch on that bike 2-3 times? How are you guys burning up clutches so much earlier?
In my case 1) off-road abuse, and 2) the occasional awful shift on a french superhighway. I got the ceramic clutch because it's a little more friendly to the absent-minded.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by configurationspace
In my case 1) off-road abuse, and 2) the occasional awful shift on a french superhighway. I got the ceramic clutch because it's a little more friendly to the absent-minded.
And it is also less likely to be affected by oil contamination if a seal were to leak or seep any fluids on it it,....which never happens of course
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:09 PM   #33
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Doesn't Slip?

One of the comments was that the ceramic clutch does not slip..if that is true, how the hell do you ride it off road? Like it or not you have to slip my '07 GSA clutch in some off road situations..not much but a little..
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
One of the comments was that the ceramic clutch does not slip..if that is true, how the hell do you ride it off road? Like it or not you have to slip my '07 GSA clutch in some off road situations..not much but a little..
Probably means it won't slip under full engagement. You can still use less engagement to slip it.
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:12 PM   #35
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practice and good hand control.

It must slip, or you'd never be able to start the bike.

Heck, even the twin plate carbon ceramic models on race cars slip. If it doesn't, it's called a dog clutch and it's no good for vehicle use.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:01 PM   #36
OzRob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwamf
I put the Touratech Clutch in my 98 1100 GS and it was fantastic, but way over priced, The same 180mm Ceramic clutch made by Sachs for a Volkswaggon is only $80, Same spline but with a diff offset.( It would work in a pinch)
I was told it would be like a light switch and it was not at all, in fact it had a lighter pull and was as smooth as my Trials bike. I have been wanting to put one in my 1150gs but the cost for what it is sucks.
Let us know how this turns out
I have heard that a VW clutch fits a BM, can anyone confirm this?
Even if it is a standard clutch and not a ceramic clutch, if it has a different offset will it work?
cheers
BTW, I have 270,000KM on my R1100GS and I am now on my second clutch, which I decided to replace after I rebuilt the gear box, the old plate was still OK but I decided to change it anyway.....still the original pressure plate.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:04 PM   #37
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really? Wonder which one(s)?

150mm-180mm is a very tiny diameter for the torque produced by a car engine.
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:07 PM   #38
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Thanks..Thought Of "Dump and Go"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonox
practice and good hand control.

It must slip, or you'd never be able to start the bike.

Heck, even the twin plate carbon ceramic models on race cars slip. If it doesn't, it's called a dog clutch and it's no good for vehicle use.
Thanks that is exactly why I asked ...I drove my friends GT2 car at several tracks and had never experienced an "all in clutch" before...you can disengage to start the motor, but you will kill the engine [which I did!] if you try to slip it to get moving..you just dump it and go! Soooo, that is what I was hearing on the ceramic in a BMW bike...
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Old 10-28-2008, 03:12 PM   #39
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The ceramic friction plates are much stiffer than the organic models and that gives a very tiny range of lever/pedal motion between full engage and full disengage. You need to be very precise with them and if you aren't aware of this and treat it the same as an organic clutch you may very well get the impression that they don't slip at all.

However if they don't slip at all, the only way you can get moving is by spinning the tyres. And since even TKC's put up a fight on asphalt you'd need a fair bit of torque on board every time you started, leading me to believe that those people who believe a ceramic clutch on a GS doesn't slip must go through tyres at a great rate and have a swathe of traffic tickets behind them!

edit: If the original lever/pedal was setup for an organic clutch you may benefit a little from different lever ratios.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:54 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonox
The ceramic friction plates are much stiffer than the organic models and that gives a very tiny range of lever/pedal motion between full engage and full disengage. You need to be very precise with them and if you aren't aware of this and treat it the same as an organic clutch you may very well get the impression that they don't slip at all.
There's almost no noticable difference between the feel of a ceramic clutch and an organic clutch until you severely overheat them -- to the point that smoke would be coming out of your transmission with an organic clutch. IMO the differences are way overblown, at least when comparing the Sachs clutch to the stock clutch.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:57 PM   #41
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So?

Quote:
Originally Posted by configurationspace
There's almost no noticable difference between the feel of a ceramic clutch and an organic clutch until you severely overheat them -- to the point that smoke would be coming out of your transmission with an organic clutch. IMO the differences are way overblown, at least when comparing the Sachs clutch to the stock clutch.
So will the ceramic clutch take more off road abuse [slipping to control bike] and still stay in service? [longevity]
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by configurationspace
There's almost no noticable difference between the feel of a ceramic clutch and an organic clutch until you severely overheat them -- to the point that smoke would be coming out of your transmission with an organic clutch. IMO the differences are way overblown, at least when comparing the Sachs clutch to the stock clutch.
'feel' comes almost invariably from the clutch springs and the mechanism, not the friction plate. What does change is the range of motion over which the slave cylinder acts in building pressure between the pressure plate and flywheel.

Stiff structures attract more load than flexible ones. (or conversely, for the same normal load, the friction force exerted by a stiff structure is greater than a flexible one). The 'feel' difference is just range of motion of the actuator in relation to how much friction force you get from a given slave cylinder movement.

Overheated friction plates lower the friciton coefficient, requiring higher normal load for the same friction force. That is not 'feel' and will change the behaviour of the clutch in a different manner to changing the stiffness of the friction elements.

If you have good fine motor skills, a road based ceramic clutch is just as usable as an organic model. If you don't have good motor control however, you'll struggle with the much finer range of motion required from a stiffer material.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa
So will the ceramic clutch take more off road abuse [slipping to control bike] and still stay in service? [longevity]
Yup, that's the whole point of it.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:03 PM   #44
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think of it as the difference between having your mouse sensitivity really low (an organic clutch) and really high (ceramic). You can still exercise the same positioning of the mouse pointer, but the motor control skills have to be more precise with the higher sensitivity. If you have very coarse motion, you could well believe that the mouse isn't linear, but on/off between one side of the screen and the other.

The upside of very stiff friction materials is that they don't cause much range of motion, meaning you can use higher lever ratio's without running out of travel. THe downside is that if the setup is made for a more flexible friction disk and you change to a stiffer one, you may be used to a clutch engagement range of a few millimetres at the lever, but the ceramic clutch may only need one millimetre total range.

An infinite stiffness material of any non-zero friction coefficient will behave like a dog clutch - a material of zero stiffness will never engage at all. Both organic and ceramic clutches sit in the middle.

THe multi-plate racing clutches are often used to create very small assemblies - they are made with very small radii, meaning that the friction coefficient has to go up (as does the clamping force from the pressure plate springs) to get the same torque as a bigger clutch. The higher loads give higher heating, which is why they need high temp friction materials like the ceramics. In a racing environment you don't really care if the tyre has to take some of the load by slipping, so you can make the clutch really aggressive. (It still has to slip though, or you'd never be able to use traction control without stalling the engine like the F1 guys do).

But the road based ceramic clutches aren't like that.
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bonox screwed with this post 10-28-2008 at 06:10 PM
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:41 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonox
really? Wonder which one(s)?

150mm-180mm is a very tiny diameter for the torque produced by a car engine.
The 6volt, 1200 cc VW (OLD) Beetle uses a 180mm Sachs clutch disc, but I'm not sure if the splines are the same, or if the greater thickness would cause clearance problems with the transmission, or if the hub was located similarly to the BMW's.
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