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Old 05-12-2010, 12:26 AM   #31
joekanter
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after market seals

Great Write up Master Meat Popsicle. Thank you as always. Hey guys. Life has caught up with me and I haven't posted any noob, annoying questions. Just got my 07 LC4A up and running after I installed a Scott's dampener. Forks took a dump after a break in ride for the Scott's and needed some loving attention. BTW-that dampener is very cool to play with. I followed all these posts before I dove into things. As with other bike maintenance that has intimidated me-once I dove in, I realized that it wasn't that hard after all. Cleaned everything out and new fluids. That triple retail Motion Pro worked great. But I also used the 35mm film trick and Starbucks tunes card to clean out seals. So far, so good. So now the forks are showing me some joy. But I suspect after 7K the seals will need to be replaced by next season. Any opinions on after market parts made by Synergy and Moose? Or just stick with the OEM's?
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:09 AM   #32
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Hey Joe,

I have not heard anyone comment on the various seals or offer an opinion. I am guessing Zerodog could if prodded... or if not I could try to ask the other tuner here in Cali.


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Old 05-12-2010, 07:31 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joekanter
Great Write up Master Meat Popsicle. Thank you as always. Hey guys. Life has caught up with me and I haven't posted any noob, annoying questions. Just got my 07 LC4A up and running after I installed a Scott's dampener. Forks took a dump after a break in ride for the Scott's and needed some loving attention. BTW-that dampener is very cool to play with. I followed all these posts before I dove into things. As with other bike maintenance that has intimidated me-once I dove in, I realized that it wasn't that hard after all. Cleaned everything out and new fluids. That triple retail Motion Pro worked great. But I also used the 35mm film trick and Starbucks tunes card to clean out seals. So far, so good. So now the forks are showing me some joy. But I suspect after 7K the seals will need to be replaced by next season. Any opinions on after market parts made by Synergy and Moose? Or just stick with the OEM's?
I would go with Synergy or Moose over the OEM.
I am rough and loving on my LC4 and I think the OEM are just, well....there.
At $20 a seal, I would expect better quality
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Old 05-12-2010, 01:39 PM   #34
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This is what I have found as far as seals go. You can take it or leave it

Synergys can work ok. Some swear by them, some report lots of stiction with them. This in my book is bad. I had them leak at the same interval on one of my old dirtbikes. I went back to OEM on that bike. Not worth the $$ in my book.

Moose is cheapo aftermarket

Pivot works, I really wanted to like because it is a complete kit with bushings, seals and orings. It is also really cheap for me to buy from my distributor. But it is a piece of shit. The bushings do not fit the fork correctly and will cause long term problems. I didn't get as far as trying the seals. I would imagine more of the same. If anyone wants some pivot works seals and wipers to try $20 and I will sell you the brand new set.

MSR is junk too. Tried these on my 640 A for the same reasons. I can get them cheap. They lasted 1000miles of easy riding. That is pretty weak.

OEM is really good stuff. These do last for a long time when installed right. The downside is $$$

MX-tech makes a good 48mm seal for less money. Not too bad.

Pro X makes a good 48mm seal kit with wipers included that seem to be holding up very well since I have started using them. They are supposed to be OEM NOK seals. But?? They are made in Japan though. To me that is a good thing. I have installed these in lots of customer bikes with very good results. And I am running them on my bikes too. I sell this complete for $60 seals/wipers.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:27 PM   #35
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Thank you Z-dog I added a note and link to your post to Page 1.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:58 PM   #36
joekanter
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Master Meat and Zerodog

Thanks guys. My brain hurts. I'm chewing the cud on this one. My wife wears the financial pants in our house. She lets me take them off..though. I just have to figure out a cost effective and durable replacement. Then let her know what I'm doing. She's very cool. Just likes to bore-ass me about the bike. The cost of ownership I guess. LOL. My 07 640A just turned 7K. The dealer changed out fork fluid around 3.5K. Kept the bike clean. 50 50 riding in mostly dusty conditions. I would have liked to get more miliage out of the seals. Is 7K acceptable? So I did the oil change last week and just took the bike out for another shake down ride. Right side looking like its weeping. Not nearly as bad as before I did the work. So I might as well just replace the seals and be on with it.

While I'm at it. How do I know if the dust wiper is shot? Or is it a matter of practice to replace both the wiper and oil seal at the same time. I had to laugh. As I'm pricing this stuff out, I realized the KTM OEM's are not for a pair, but for one. LOL.

I'm curious what other folks have done miliage wise with OEM's or Synergy's.






Thanks again.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:42 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
This is what I have found as far as seals go. You can take it or leave it

Synergys can work ok. Some swear by them, some report lots of stiction with them. This in my book is bad. I had them leak at the same interval on one of my old dirtbikes. I went back to OEM on that bike. Not worth the $$ in my book.

Moose is cheapo aftermarket

Pivot works, I really wanted to like because it is a complete kit with bushings, seals and orings. It is also really cheap for me to buy from my distributor. But it is a piece of shit. The bushings do not fit the fork correctly and will cause long term problems. I didn't get as far as trying the seals. I would imagine more of the same. If anyone wants some pivot works seals and wipers to try $20 and I will sell you the brand new set.

MSR is junk too. Tried these on my 640 A for the same reasons. I can get them cheap. They lasted 1000miles of easy riding. That is pretty weak.

OEM is really good stuff. These do last for a long time when installed right. The downside is $$$

MX-tech makes a good 48mm seal for less money. Not too bad.

Pro X makes a good 48mm seal kit with wipers included that seem to be holding up very well since I have started using them. They are supposed to be OEM NOK seals. But?? They are made in Japan though. To me that is a good thing. I have installed these in lots of customer bikes with very good results. And I am running them on my bikes too. I sell this complete for $60 seals/wipers.

RTW on OEM seals, no issues at all.
Rear shock rebuilt before leaving by Z-dog.

Grease under the wipers, neoprene boots for the forks.
Forks rebuilt by me(and revalved)
Suspension shortened front and rear.
bill
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Old 05-14-2010, 10:19 AM   #38
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First off, you need to train your wife better, motorcycles are really important. You need to spend more $$ and have more of them. She just needs to understand this fact and your life will be easier.......

About the seals. Brand new seals of any brand can leak if you subject them to the right sort of mud. It just kicks their ass. As Bill said fork boots can work. But again under the wrong conditions they can make life bad. I have pulled those boots off of more than one fork to find gravel trapped under them just rubbing away on your nice chrome legs. But in dust, they can be like an extra wiper.

If you haven't done any mud and you have new seals that are leaking that is not normal. The dealer may have used shitty seals, or just done it wrong. Or worse, not done it at all. Yes, I have seen this too. In general, dealers suck at suspension work. I'm sure there are exceptions to this. But from what I have seen, the only thing they are good at is making your ass hurt from the reaming they give you when you get your bill.

For road use and some dirt road action with I usually see LC4 suspension give up around the 10,000 mile mark. This isn't a goal. This is long overdue at this point. But this is usually when stuff leaks. I have seen them go even longer, but in general that is just bad on the internal components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joekanter
Master Meat and Zerodog

Thanks guys. My brain hurts. I'm chewing the cud on this one. My wife wears the financial pants in our house. She lets me take them off..though. I just have to figure out a cost effective and durable replacement. Then let her know what I'm doing. She's very cool. Just likes to bore-ass me about the bike. The cost of ownership I guess. LOL. My 07 640A just turned 7K. The dealer changed out fork fluid around 3.5K. Kept the bike clean. 50 50 riding in mostly dusty conditions. I would have liked to get more miliage out of the seals. Is 7K acceptable? So I did the oil change last week and just took the bike out for another shake down ride. Right side looking like its weeping. Not nearly as bad as before I did the work. So I might as well just replace the seals and be on with it.

While I'm at it. How do I know if the dust wiper is shot? Or is it a matter of practice to replace both the wiper and oil seal at the same time. I had to laugh. As I'm pricing this stuff out, I realized the KTM OEM's are not for a pair, but for one. LOL.

I'm curious what other folks have done miliage wise with OEM's or Synergy's.






Thanks again.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:17 AM   #39
joekanter
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Training my wife-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
First off, you need to train your wife better, motorcycles are really important. You need to spend more $$ and have more of them. She just needs to understand this fact and your life will be easier.......
Last year or so, I had the dealer change the fork oil. No seal replacement. So I got 7K on the origional seals.

I'll have to show her this quote. LOL. She gave me the thumbs up to get the seals and wiper, then tells me to get the proper tools so I don't start "crying" next week. But I might be the one with the last laugh. She inherited her fathers 2001 BMW Z3. It's sitting at the local BMW shop and the work estimate is rising pretty fast. Just got to love the OBD fault codes.

So I ordered the oil seals, and dust wipers. I figure I may not need the wipers, but will compare them to the old ones and see how they look. Also a nice Motion Pro seal press and bullet.

Thanks again guys for the input. Have a great weekend.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:17 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodog
...

For road use and some dirt road action with I usually see LC4 suspension give up around the 10,000 mile mark. This isn't a goal. This is long overdue at this point. But this is usually when stuff leaks. I have seen them go even longer, but in general that is just bad on the internal components.
I am over 17,000 miles, and my fork seals may have given up the ghost. Problem is I will have to pull the forks, and partially disassemble them to refill the oil and set the height just to find out if cleaning the seals was or was not enough...

probably why a suspension tuner told me he just goes ahead and changes the fork seals with every rebuild; it's cheaper than doing them later.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:54 AM   #41
joekanter
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A couple things before I crash.....

...from working graves last night.

I have those fancy speed bleeders on the WP's. My bike likes to be fondled on a daily basis. Part of the fondling is hitting those bleeders for a WP fart. Just did it on my way through the garage. The bike even asked me "how was your night?" Then I had a brain fart. I always get a pretty good hiss out of the bleeders. There is no weight on the front wheel-then it accrued to me. Where is this hiss coming from. Could the change in barometric pressure be causing this? Seriously. If not-then what is. Again-no weight on the front tire. Fork unweighted and at full extension.

Now-if the front axle is slightly misaligned, could this also cause uneven sealing and the drip, drip, drips? I read this valuable thread until my brain leaked. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7503930 Is there any relations ship?

Lastly-do your rebuilds include new dust shield/scrapers. I have them on order but now I'm thinking I might not need them. It would be stupid, like Mr. Meat suggested: "probably why a suspension tuner told me he just goes ahead and changes the fork seals with every rebuild; it's cheaper than doing them later."

Thank
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:55 AM   #42
joekanter
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A couple things before I crash.....

...from working graves last night.

I have those fancy speed bleeders on the WP's. My bike likes to be fondled on a daily basis. Part of the fondling is hitting those bleeders for a WP fart. Just did it on my way through the garage. The bike even asked me "how was your night?" Then I had a brain fart. I always get a pretty good hiss out of the bleeders. There is no weight on the front wheel-then it accrued to me. Where is this hiss coming from. Could the change in barometric pressure be causing this? Seriously. If not-then what is. Again-no weight on the front tire. Fork unweighted and at full extension.

Now-if the front axle is slightly misaligned, could this also cause uneven sealing and the drip, drip, drips? I read this valuable thread until my brain leaked. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7503930 Is there any relations ship?

Lastly-do your rebuilds include new dust shield/scrapers. I have them on order but now I'm thinking I might not need them. It would be stupid, like Mr. Meat suggested: "probably why a suspension tuner told me he just goes ahead and changes the fork seals with every rebuild; it's cheaper than doing them later."

Thanks folks in advance.
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:05 PM   #43
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I musta had a good night too... seeing double.

joe, you should be able to visually inspect your dust shield/scraper assy for damage. Does it look worn out? Is the upper edge destroyed from prying it open to maintain the grease pack and/or clean the seals? When it "scrapes" the fork tubes do they look uniformly scraped or do they look really streaked? Just some things I thought of that might help you consider replacing them.

Oh, are they cheap?
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Old 05-15-2010, 07:26 PM   #44
joekanter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meat popsicle

Oh, are they cheap?
No, OEM. Original ones that came with the bike. I have ordered replacement wipers to be safe. I'll compare them when they come. Still don't get where the air is coming from when pushing the bleeders. I went to sleep after my last post. Some ten hours later-the forks were pressurized again with that tell tail hiss. Now back to work. Graves sucks.
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Old 05-16-2010, 08:50 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joekanter
No, OEM. Original ones that came with the bike. I have ordered replacement wipers to be safe. I'll compare them when they come. Still don't get where the air is coming from when pushing the bleeders. I went to sleep after my last post. Some ten hours later-the forks were pressurized again with that tell tail hiss. Now back to work. Graves sucks.
Ah, the question is why do forks build up pressure when the bike has not been touched? Mine do that too, and my guess was warming/cooling cycles over days.

Or maybe it is an indication of something else? Here is a discussion of the "air spring" in forks:

http://crfsonly.com/howto/230f/fork-...air-valves.php

and a statement of why pressure builds up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by crfsonly
...
Air valve fork caps are also useful to eliminate normal pressure build-up inside the forks, which eventually leads to harsh response and weakened fork seals. Fork seals have oil on only one side (inside the fork tube), so they are more effective at keeping the pressure in than in keeping it out. Over time, forks gradually build up pressure inside. It doesn’t build up to the point of being harmful, but it can affect tuning and overall fork action. This is why the owners’ manuals for bikes with vented fork caps usually advise venting the forks regularly.
...
With that in mind I am guessing that night cools things inside the forks off, causing them to contract and creating a vacuum that sucks air inside the forks (much like fork extension after compression, but to a lesser degree).

Then when things warm up during the day, and things inside the forks expand, the additional air inside the forks cannot escape. Night comes, things cool off, and repeat the above.

Sounds good?
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