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Old 05-18-2008, 01:35 PM   #1
focallength OP
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splitting the case 96 XR600R (pics)

ok so I was in Big Bear and something happened where my bike wont shift into gear anymore. Everything feels fine with the shifter except theres no engagement of the gears, I can shift them manually when I turn the doohickey inside the engine. I was told that the shifter comes out easily but the manual says the case must be split and I am inclined to believe my own eyes and the manual. So I have to pull the engine (which I have done before) and split the case (which I have never done) I have some concerns and apprehensions but Im going to go forward with this endevor. So...if you have ever split the case on a four stroke or have extensive enginge experience I would appreciate any help I can get, Ill try to pull the motor tomorrow and get started on dissasembling the engine.

Question 1: do I have to completly break down the top end or can I just remove it from the bottom end? I know Ill have to remove the timing chain but I think that once that is done the whole top end should just seperate easily from the bottom end.

Question 2: Do I have to buy a new timing chain? the one I have in there is new so Id hate to buy a new one.


here is an internal view of the right side, I removed the spring and a star shaped piece that clicks when the gears are changed, I can change the gears by turning the star piece (not pictured) as you can see theres no way the entire shift mechanism can come out through the little hole.




here is the left side, if I pull the cover here it only acesses the stator and you can see the shift shaft only comes out by splitting the case.


shift shaft is on the right just below the chain











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Old 05-19-2008, 02:05 PM   #2
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Ok, so I got the engine out last night, and this morning after work I started a little work on it (it got too hot so Ill do a little more tonight)

So far the only trouble Im having is removing the bolts on the cam sprocket, the little buggers are on TIGHT! So far no luck even budging them. I tried using a large box wrench to add some leverage to the hex wrench but still nothing, one problem is that I have to keep the cam from turning while trying to loosen the bolt. They may be locktited on and I was told you can heat the bolts a little to try and melt the locktite, I think Ill try this after I get a longer fulcrum on the hex wrench to try and break them loose.

Any ideas how to get them loose? This is the next step as I have already removed the cam tensioner and the manual says to remove the cam next before removing the head bolts.


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Old 05-19-2008, 03:59 PM   #3
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:23 PM   #4
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Splitting Cases

PM sent
I can do these in my sleep
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:18 PM   #5
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ok, so I finally got the pesky bolts loose, they had lock tite on them so that was the problem.I removed the cam and the 2 bearings along with the cam sprocket, and held the timing chain in place with what ever was handy. The manual says to tie it but I just decided to hold it up, I hope this dosent cause any problems in the long run. One problem I may have in the future is a timing issue, the book didnt say anything about watching timing marks or to do anything special, just pull the cam out, so well see.




so after the cam came off I pulled the head off, this was pretty straight forward, just remove 7 bolts. It was on pretty good so I had to work it off using a combination of, mallet/screw driver/pry bar. The manual said it was ok to do this, just to use caution on the cooling vanes as they can break easily. So I got the head off and discarded the gasket (head not pictured) there is a bit of sludge/buildup on the valves and the piston, which is surprising because I had the case apart a few months ago by a mechanic to replace the counter shaft. But since he didnt check the internal shift mechanism for problems why would he clean the valves or piston. So I cleaned a bit of the piston up (Ill clean it up more tonight or tommorow) and Ill just send the head off to get the valves cleaned/checked. Checking the piston and sleeve, revealed that everything was smooth and aside from the slight build up (really its very thin build up, which the manual says is normal, apparentlly these engines being competition engines, albeit older competition engines, need to be torn down regularly)




so next I set out to remove the cylinder, which would leave the pistonto be removed and then, remove the clutch basket, oil pump and magneto and finally split the case. 4 internal bolts held the cylinder in place, after some fighting I got 3 of them off but the fourth was being problamatic. So far the fourth has borken a 12mm socket (which I have never seen before although it was a cheaphy socket, I had my 1/4" drive left with a working 12mm socket, but the 1/4" isnt beefy enough so it just ended up breaking off the extension, leaving the socket in the hole. The socket is not stuck so I think everything is ok. Ill just need to pick up a 3/8 dirve 12mm socket and give it another go.


the socket is in the lower left hole, you can just make out the cracks in the socket on the piston and the extension just got the tip ripped off.

Either way, I dont know if Ill be able to do any work tonight (maybe just try to remove the bolt, Ill deffinetlly do more tommorow.

Thanks for the PM Ill give you a call when I run into some major trouble, so far its pretty straight forward, but I think I might run into timing issues when putting everything back together, but well see.



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Old 05-20-2008, 04:46 PM   #6
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Timing

Don't get bent about the timing now. The cam chain is coming off anyway since your opening the cases. When you do time it, it is as simple as... Piston at TDC. Cam lobes pointing down to head. Cam sprocket has 3 marks on the outside. One straight up at 12:00 and 1 at 9:00 the other at 3:00. Just work the cam chain onto the sprocket till everything lines up and install the cam bolts. Steve
PS: Oh yeah you didn't mention anyone having been in there previously...That's were the Loctite came from...Hope he didn't glue that cylinder bolt. Buy Craftsman sockets and an extension. Lifetime warranty...
PPS: Wait till you have to install the cam tensioner. Fun 'n games. It's easy. Ask me how when your ready.
PPPS: Excellent head work at Engine Dynamics in Petaluma Ca. Do a valve job. It needs it. I just droped my buddys XR650L head off for a valve job and cylinder for a 675cc kit. Been dealing with Mike for over 20 years. He's at 707-763-7519
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BMW's
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87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project

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Old 05-21-2008, 04:09 PM   #7
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ok so I finally got the last bolt out, I removed the cylinder and one of the timing chain guides. I cant go any further because I have to remove the clutch basket next and for that I need a special tool. So I decided to clean up the piston and valves a bit. That stuff is pretty hard to get off, I spent quite a while with a scouring pad and some degreaser just to get it to the point that its at.








so Ill do some more cleaning until I can buy the tools I need, it may be a while.

As far as the engine Ive had the top end done and the case split once since Ive owned it. The case was split about 6 months ago to replace the counter shaft and the shift shaft. It surprises me that something broke with the internal shift mechanism, either way it could have looked fine at the time, or it broke from the crash. I dont think the crash did anyting because the bike has suffered worse crashes and come out fine everytime. I think it was just time for this part to break (at the end of its life), it is an old bike. However by the time Im done just about everything should be new or have very few miles on it, so I shouldnt have to do any engine work for quite a while.

so far we have a new top end (everything is new), new counter shaft, new shift shaft, new bearings and oil seals, new clutch (although the basket has some wear), Ive been told the gears have some wear but they are fine (Ill check them out just in case) So pretty much I just need to get a new internal shift mechanism installed and sheck over all the little sprockets and oil pump and everything else should be fine.

the head and all its bits are less than a year old, however Ill most likely still take it in to get checked out, thanks for the info on the shop, but its a little far from me. And moneys a little tight right now (hence the reason Im tearing this thing apart myself in stead of just throwing money at someone and saying "fix-it")

which I did when I first got it. When I got the bike it had a 660 big bore kit in it. It also had a leaking head warped piston/cylinder/valves (basically the whole top end was shot) and was sucking air through the head and it still would pull 90+ making almost no compression, it ran for a year before I took it in. Being that this is my first bike (and Im too poor to buy a new one) Im a little attached to it so I want to keep it going. Eventually Ill retire it and fix all the cosmetic stuff, Ill keep it around to use as transportation around the city.
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focallength screwed with this post 05-21-2008 at 04:19 PM
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:01 PM   #8
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Got Air?

Easiest way to take the clutch basket off is after the outer cover is off (4-10mm bolts) the inner nut is 30mm or 1-3/16". Try to use 6 point sockets. Just hold the outer part of the hub. Leave all of the clutch plates in. Hit it with a 1/2" air gun and the nut comes right off. The nut on the end of the crank is 27mm or 1-/16". Same deal. Gun it off. I usually have the engine laying on it's left side supported on 2 short pieces of 2x4. You can probably get away with leaving the stator on. No real reason to remove it. Hold onto the edge of the engine case and tap down on the trans shaft and crank. The right engine case should come right up.
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BMW's
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87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:19 PM   #9
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well, once I have thew plates out I need the tool that keeps the clutch basket form spinning. Ive tried other methods, but being as the basket is fragile (aluminum) Id rather get the right tool to hold it. I was thinking about the stator, I havent gotten that far in the book, but from what I have read on splitting the case it dosent mention removing the stator. Ill check it out tonight and see what the manual says. I have no reason to doubt you and I hope I dont have to remove it. Either way the clutch tool is only $30 or so, I just dont get paid for a little while and rent is due, so... it may be a week or two until I can get it, thanks for the help.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:09 AM   #10
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What Tool

No need for the clutch hub tool if you put the clutch back in and let IT hold the clutch hub center via the friction of the clutch itself. No air? Run it down to the motorcycle shop or some where that does and just gun it and the crank nut off. I have been working on my Honda singles since 81 and I don't own a clutch tool. Although I do have air. Again you don't have to pull the stator but if you want to get the Motion Pro tool. Quality stuff.
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BMW's
58 R26
79 R100s
91 R100gs

87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project
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Old 05-25-2008, 01:46 PM   #11
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thanks, i think Ill just get the tool anyway, that way I have it in the future. I should be able to get it next week.
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Old 05-30-2008, 12:02 PM   #12
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ok so I got the clutch basket out and split the case. I removed the internal shift mechanism and...nada nothing is broken/bent everything moves smoothly. So I went to the delearship to get some insight and I got the same response I did in big bear..."everything looks fine" bunch of friggin retards, I told them well everything isnt fine because the damn thing wont shift, and they just ignored me and walked away. On the plus side I now know that splitting a case is stupid easy and Ill never take my enging to a mechanic again. All in all its taken about 3 hours to remove the enginge and split the case (typically your charged for at least 10 hours labor just to split the case and thats if you bring the engine to them). So now I have to do a little more research, I think that there is a small screw/bolt that may be missing/broken, time will tell. So if you ever have misgivings about doing your own enginge work, dont. I have no small engine experience and truthfully its one of the easiest things Ive ever done. Everything comes down to removing bolts, thats it. remove 6 bolts the vavle cover comes off, remove more bolts the head comes off, take off 4 bolts the cylinder comes off, take out 12 small bolts and the case comes apart.




the internal shift mechanism


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focallength screwed with this post 05-30-2008 at 12:09 PM
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Old 05-30-2008, 03:31 PM   #13
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Stuff to Check

On the shaft that the 3 shift forks are located. The center fork is bolted to the shaft. Bolt still there?
In one of my earlier posts was the question about the shift lever itself being stripped/slipping. The shift shaft looks OK. That little spring on the shaft is supposed to be engaged with the fork piece that slides back 'n forth. How is the shift lever?
Before you split the cases on the clutch side is a star shaped piece that is bolted to the shift drum. It was ok? Bolt tight? There is also a spring loaded arm with a roller wheel that runs on that star piece. That was ok?
Shift forks. The ends that move the gears. No scrapes,discoloration?
Didn't smoke the clutch did you?
Running out of things to check here. Hold it up to the phone so I can get a better look at it...
Time to start cleaning all of those gaskets off. New razor blade. Solvent to soften up the gasket residue.
Order up a center engine case, clutch cover, cylinder base and head gasket. Rocker cover gasket can be reused if you coat it with some non-drying sealant like Yamabond. Also put a dab of that on the engine case below where the base gasket covers the case split.
Put the cases back together for a test and install the shifter stuff on the clutch side. No clutch basket and turn the input shaft by hand and try shifting gears. See what hapens.
Only takes a little longer to reassemble the engine than taking it apart except all that dam gasket scraping. Remember..Cleanliness. No old gasket material = no leaks.
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BMW's
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87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project

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Old 06-01-2008, 01:49 PM   #14
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I checked everything, Ive come to the conclusion that nothing was broken. When I opened the case the part on the internal shift mechanism that engages the spindle was locked back. This is on a spring and moves back and forth but for some reason it became stuck. When I put it in the engine and move the shifter it changes gears normally...so, problem solved. I dont know why it got stuck but it did, if I had known how the mechanism worked I could have put a stick in the hole and unjamed the plate. Either way I chalk it up to a learning experience, I know how everything works now, so all is good. I have to get some cash to buy new gaskets (about $85 for 3 gaskets) then I can start re-assembling the engine.

Thanks for the help, I only anticipate trouble with the timing and the cam chain tensioner, when I assemble the engine, but well see I didnt have any trouble taking it apart.

I do wonder what made the plate stick, not enough oil? freak incident? its suppossed to slide back and forth easily and I can only see not having enough oil being a reason for it to stick, any ideas?
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Old 06-03-2008, 06:13 AM   #15
mcma111
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Shifter

In the last photo is the shift shaft. Is/Was the little spring with the blue paint engaged to the fork/sliding part? It goes into the hole just above the socket in the picture. In the picture it IS NOT engaged. That is what keeps it in contact with the shifter drum.


PARTS:

Case gasket #11191-MN1-700 $12.91
Clutch Cover #11394-MN1-700 $9.56
Cyl Base #12191-MN1-700 $6.31
Head Gskt #12251-MN1-671 $18.49
Rocker cover #12391-MG2-790 $25.22
Freight/Handling about $9.00
No Tax

These are Service Honda prices. Also it takes a week to receive the order.
So your right, about $80.00. You can use the time to clean all the old gasket material off of those cases
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BMW's
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79 R100s
91 R100gs

87 Harley FXRS-SP ~ 06 KTM 625 SMC ~ 72 Honda CB750/915cc ~ 92 XR600/654cc ~ 95 XR650l/675cc ~ 03 CRF450r ~ 05 CRF450x ~ 02 XR650l/675cc ~ 86 YZ490 ~ 93 YZ80 ~ 93 XR650l Project
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