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Old 06-08-2008, 10:12 AM   #1
HighDezert OP
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HAFC for KLR? Anybody running on hydrogen?

Who has a HHO setup on a KLR?

I'm working on mine, i've got the first prototype cell built up, and this week hopefully i'll be plumbing and wiring it up on my beast. My core made a lot of gas when i tested it after wrapping the plates to fit inside a 4" pvc. I tested with tap water.

Once i get the basic electrolyzer, bubbler, feed , and wiring all put together on the bike i'm going to work on a pulse controller and see how efficient i can make it. I'm shooting for at least 100mpg on my KLR, which would be possible if i can get a system to work as well as the one on my friend's truck.

I think i need to get a bigger stator and a second battery to dedicate to HHO production, and i'll be able to make some serious gas.

I know a few other people who have done HAFC on their trucks, including a monster truck style old blazer with a foot or more of lift, big rubber, and a tuned 350 that gets near 30mpg with hydrogen assist, up from about 9mpg before the conversion.
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:15 AM   #2
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Sounds interesting, can you post more info?

I'm wondering if it also comes with the toilet paper oil filter attachment.
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:18 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreaseMonkey
I'm wondering if it also comes with the toilet paper oil filter attachment.
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:26 AM   #4
HighDezert OP
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What info do you want?

I know a few people who have successful HHO plants running in their vehicles now, i've seen the system works, and for minimal investment a simple system can improve mileage.

Detalis of my system:

I've got approximately 80sq" of stainless plate for the cell itself. I cut 2 strips about 4"x10" stainless, i think about 18-20ga and rolled them both into matching spirals. Then i cut a lot of 3mm spacers out of vinyl tubing, fitted the two plates together and spaced out all the plates 3mm from each other so that there was a fairly consistent gap and no metal was touching. I used a bunch of zipties to tighten around the cell and press the spacers down, and also to wind it tight enough to fit inside a 4" tube which will eventually be my electrolyzer assembly.

After getting the cell wound and spaced, i connected some 12ga wire to each plate, dunked the cell in a gallon of water, touched the wires to the battery posts and the first time within a few seconds (with tap water) i got bubbles, and very soon thereafter, it made a LOT of bubbles. On subsequent tests with the same water, it began to produce a significant amoujnt of gas almost instnatly. The plates seem to hold a residual charge that helps it start again when switched on. The water changes too, as the impurities in the tap water are also electrolyzed, andf it turned the color of apple juice after running for a few minutes. I'll test with distilled water and a variety of electrolytes once i get the whole thing put together and set up to capture gas, that way i can compare results of liters/min under different conditions.

The electrolyzer is a 4" pvc tube, which i'm going to make a lot bigger than i need to bathe the cell, using a larger volume of water for keeping it cool. I also plan to recirculate water through the bubbler/dryer. I'll probably use 1.5 to 2 gals of water in the system. The electrolyzer will have a barb fitting on top for gas output. The gas will flow (with some water) into the bubbler and diffused underwater. Above the diffuser level will be a drain going back to the cell to keep a constant water level in the bubbler. On top of the bubbler i'll extract dry gas and send it through a set of filters to further prevent any backfire through the line.

I'll plumb a line right from the gas filter set to the airbox right in front of the venturi, after the air filter.

Electrically, it'll be a matter of a 25amp fuse, a relay controlled by the ignition switch and aslo with a safety override so i can cut it even with the ignition on. 12v and however many amps it takes, i'll find out when i get it tuned will run it. After i build the basic DC system and get it to work, i plan to experiment with obtaining max efficiency, i'll test different electrical waveforms and frequencies, and also try such things as injecting RF signals, magnetic pulses, and sound waves into the cell core. I've heard that a sqaure wave in the 10.5khz with at least two multiplexed harmonic frequencies above that also aids in breaking water. I've also studied stan myers' patents and plan to build the 20khz resonant choke circuit that puts out a square pulse with a harmonic "echo" of decreasing amnplitude that he claims was the "key" to fracturing water efficiently. He claims overunity with his design, i'm just looking for over 100mpg which isn't unreasonable and should be doable with a well designed system, and is far from overunity. I won't discount the possibility of attaining using nothing but water or a water based electrolyte (i'm going to experimet with different electrolytes also, such as sodium, potassium, and other additives.)

Hopefully by the end of this week i'll have a system up and runnning. I don't have a camera so no pics, but i'll update on any progress.

So nobody else has a HHO on their bike?
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Old 06-09-2008, 05:45 PM   #5
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holy crap. Get a damn camera, even if it is a disposable one. Anyone live near this guy to loan him one?? I need pictures.

I think I'll subscribe to this thread. If successful, I'd nominate you into the KLR hall of fame.

No pressure.

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Old 06-09-2008, 06:25 PM   #6
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ummm.... Yeah what he said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDezert

Electrically, it'll be a matter of a 25amp fuse, a relay controlled by the ignition switch and aslo with a safety override so i can cut it even with the ignition on. 12v and however many amps it takes, i'll find out when i get it tuned will run it. After i build the basic DC system and get it to work, i plan to experiment with obtaining max efficiency, i'll test different electrical waveforms and frequencies, and also try such things as injecting RF signals, magnetic pulses, and sound waves into the cell core. I've heard that a sqaure wave in the 10.5khz with at least two multiplexed harmonic frequencies above that also aids in breaking water. I've also studied stan myers' patents and plan to build the 20khz resonant choke circuit that puts out a square pulse with a harmonic "echo" of decreasing amnplitude that he claims was the "key" to fracturing water efficiently. He claims overunity with his design, i'm just looking for over 100mpg which isn't unreasonable and should be doable with a well designed system, and is far from overunity. I won't discount the possibility of attaining using nothing but water or a water based electrolyte (i'm going to experimet with different electrolytes also, such as sodium, potassium, and other additives.)

Hopefully by the end of this week i'll have a system up and runnning. I don't have a camera so no pics, but i'll update on any progress.

So nobody else has a HHO on their bike?
sometimes I talk with people that I know are WAY smarter than me. I usually just sjut up and try to follow along and act like I know what they are talking about.

But in this case. I don't have a freakin clue. If it is really so easy, why isn't everyone doing it?

If you hook this system up to the gas engine on a Prius, I wonder what kind of mileage you could get.

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Old 06-09-2008, 08:05 PM   #7
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almost sound to good to be true, dosen't it?
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Old 06-09-2008, 11:35 PM   #8
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When you come to "over unity" you might want to read it as fiction.
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Old 06-10-2008, 06:31 AM   #9
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If you do the math it is not possible for these "water for gas" schemes to work economically. Don't waste your time and money. A long post from another forum is copied below. Its pretty technical, but it needs to be in order to analyze the process.

"Water-for-gas? Let's have a look, shall we?

The standard reaction for the electrolysis of water is:
2H2O → 2H2(g) + O2(g)
For this process, 4 moles of electrons take place, therefore the standard free energy change is:
ΔG = -nFε
ΔG = -4*96487*1.229
ΔG = -474330 J

We can expect to extract -474 kJ from the products of the electrolysis and use it to do work.

This is also borne out by looking at the approximate bond energies. 4 H-O bonds must be broken, at ≈460 kJ each, but energy is released when the new bonds form. The O=O bond yields ≈498 kJ and the H-H bonds yield ≈433 kJ each. Our net free energy is:
-4(460000) + 2(433000) + 498000 = -476000 J

So we have to put ≈ 475 kJ into the system to separate the water, and we can get ≈ 475kJ back out in utilizing the free energy.

According to the "Oxyhydrogen" people (more on this later), burning the resulting gases gives off 576 kJ. If the TOTAL energy that can possibly be released to do work is 475 kJ, how are they magically getting 576 kJ? They're generally not.

Now, on to the electrolysis itself. The efficiencies for electrolysis of water are reported as anywhere from 50% to 94%. So, in the best case, we have to put 505 kJ in to be able to get 475 kJ out, and in the worst case we need an input of 950 kJ to be able to get 475 kJ out. Even before factoring in the other losses, we can see from the 50-94% efficiencies, that we will have a net loss of 6-50% of the energy used for electrolysis.

There are thermal losses from heat engines. From Carnot, the MAXIMUM possible efficiency from our engine is 70-75%. The real value is about 25% due to friction and the fact that the combustion is not spontaneously reversible.

So, with the maximum possible theoretical efficiency (which can NOT be obtained in practice) we are now needing anywhere from 675 kJ to 1357 kJ. Even if we allow for the inflated output numbers, and ignore the actual losses we'd encounter, you can NOT produce 576 kJ and use it to keep a process needing 675 kJ to 1357 kJ on-going. And this is before we try to extract any OTHER work from our engine -- we are solely using the output power to try and drive the input power.

In reality, what you end up with is needing to output around 3150 kJ to keep the cycle going, but you are only producing 475 kJ. This is why water-4-gas did not work when Adam and Jamie tried it. The losses completely overwhelm any energies "created". Water is not a fuel -- it is the ashes of hydrogen that has been burned once before.


Now, I know the "newest" schemes do not try to run the car solely off the hydrogen, but call for using it in a "hydro-assist" manner. The claim is that the hydrogen makes the gasoline burn better.

The first thing to note is the losses from above. If we need 3150 kJ to produce two moles of hydrogen gas, and can only get 475 kJ back from the system, then we need to burn an ADDITIONAL 2675 kJ worth of gasoline just to break even!! This isn't looking promising.

But, but, but... the claims are that the hydrogen is a "catalyst" and makes the gasoline burn more efficiently.

So? That claim is just wrong. We know we can't affect the thermal efficiency of the Carnot cycle by very much, so 75% is still going to be "wasted". Even if the hydrogen did act as a "catalyst", there is no more energy to be released -- 99% of the gasoline does undergo combustion. A 300% gain in efficiency would imply that we are now getting 399% of the theoretically-retrievable energy that the gasoline contains (well, actually more than 399% because we also need to cover the losses from the electrolysis). This is just asinine and Carnot says otherwise. Energy can not be created from nothing -- the gasoline can NOT give more than 100% of what it has.

But, but, but... "it's not H2 gas that is produced, it's monatomic hydrogen!"

Ok, let's look at that. The H2(g) → H(g) reaction is NOT exothermic until you reach a temperature of about 4000K. At our temperatures you need to INPUT another 800 kJ (4*200 kJ) to get the 2H2(g) into 4H(g). Without even considering the thermal losses from the combustion cycle, we now need an input of about 1600 kJ to our electrolysis system in order to get the claimed 576 kJ of "oxyhydrogen" back out (and that calculation was made in the 19th century and is taken from a 1911 encyclopaedic entry -- wonder why they don't use more modern sources and numbers?). I'm still seeing a major net loss, aren't you?

But, but, but... "the hydrogen DOES improve the efficiency!"

Yes, it is reported that hydrogen can increase the lean limit from 1.7 to 1.85, and it is also reported that hydrogen can reduce the no-load idle consumption of gasoline by up to 50% in small engines.

Let's look at these. First off, these are for volumes of hydrogen that can't possibly be produced by these simple cells. And, the reported lamdas of 1.7 and 1.85 are for natural gas combustion, not gasoline. The lean limit for gasoline is a lamda of about 1.2. Until you get to the lean misfire conditions, leaning your gasoline down WILL reduce consumption. But you also get rough idle and loss of power. Except when idling, you car isn't fully leaned (and even then it's not maxed out) -- in fact, the more demand you're putting on the engine, the richer the computer (or even the carb in non-EFI engines) makes the mixture. By overriding the computer and approaching the lean limit, you can reduce consumption at idle even without hydrogen. But as you place demands on the engine, it can NOT be run this lean. The faster you go, the more engine power must be used to overcome drag, so at highway speeds, even if you are not accelerating, you are not running a lean mixture. The manufacturers do NOT lean the idle down as far as possible, because excessive leaning can burn the spark plugs and pistons and lead to detonation and preignition. Even if it was possible to reduce idle usage of gasoline by up to 50%, the long-term engine damage and the percentage of the time the engine is NOT idling dramatically reduce this savings. Plus, you STILL need extra gasoline to produce the hydrogen in the first place from all the above-mentioned losses.


"Ok, ok... so I can't get such phenomenal gains in mileage from 'hydro-assist.' But what about this PICC stuff?"

Ah, yes... The "pre-ignition catalytic converter". Let's take a look.

The claim is that the PICC will break the isooctane molecule of gasoline down into smaller molecules that will "burn better." Oh, really? When we looked at the energies involved in electrolysis, we noticed that breaking bonds takes energy and forming bonds releases energy. It doesn't matter what happens in-between. If our net result is 2C8H18 + 25O2 → 16CO2 + 18H2O, then we are breaking 37 C-H bonds, 14 C-C bonds and 25 O=O bonds, but re-forming 32 C-O bonds and 36 H-O bonds. Any bonds that form and break in-between are immaterial; we are left with a net change in bonds of about 37800 kJ. But, and this is important, it TAKES energy to make any smaller molecules. We have to put energy in, in order to have the higher bond energies of any smaller molecules. The net change from beginning to end, remains the same: whether you extract 37.8 MJ from the gasoline, or extract 57.8 MJ after putting 20 MJ into the bonds of smaller molecules, is immaterial -- the net change is still 37.8 MJ.

And besides, the PICC sites claim they're making a "plasma". Plasmas do not undergo normal chemical reactions. You won't get combustion in a plasma, nevermind factoring in the large energies necessary to create plasmas in the first place.



Every step of all these schemes consumes far more energy than it could possibly release. There is no magic way to get such phenomenal gains in fuel efficiency out of your existing car."
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:57 PM   #10
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still, it sounds like a marvelous hobby
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:40 AM   #11
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Hydrogen source

I know a little about hydrogen production, and it seems that to get it without consuming fuel is the way to go. A windmill with large sails works well in low wind conditions having large torque and low speed to charge batteries for elec. storage which gives off Browns gas as a biproduct. Browns gas is a combination of H2 and O which is extreemly volitile and needs no air to burn. A canister of this compressed air would certainly give a boost, but may wear out your engine because of the resultant steam/water. I understand ceramic coatings improve the situation. Check out "Fuel From water" ISBN 0-945516-04-5.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:42 PM   #12
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Hey nofate, how do you know there's not a way to make the process more efficient, aside from a textbook from 1911 to reference and some math for basic electrolysis? What methods have you tried? Have you tried pulsating DC? At what freqs? How about sound and/or RF in the cell?

Right now i've got a core that "boils" a gallon of water, and as soon as i can get a day to go hardware shopping for a few more small pieces i can plumb the system into the klr and do some baseline tests.

And also yes, i mentioned overunity, which i don't beleive i'm getting close to, merely supplimenting a fairly low rpm 650cc engine with a little bit of hho.

Don't waste your time trying to prove me wrong theoretically, i'm far from deterred by your skepticism based on faulty science. Our current theoretical model of physics is still fairly crude and inaccurate.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:05 PM   #13
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Is this the thing with the "joe cell"??

http://www.thejoecell.com/


I really hope it isn't. I came across that stuff one night, I was bored so I read the entire site. It started off pretty well... I even accepted some of the new agey stuff.... but when I found out that the hydrogen producing "joe cell" was hooked to the intake via a blind hole I nearly choked! That's right, the hose from the cell ran straight to a dead end with NO WAY for the hydrogen to escape into the intake tract....
It's BS, sorry. You don't get something for nothing and it would take more energy to produce hydrogen than you could possibly get out of it. What can I say, Nofate has nailed it to the wall already. It's basic physics.
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Old 06-17-2008, 12:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlySniper
Is this the thing with the "joe cell"??

http://www.thejoecell.com/


I really hope it isn't. I came across that stuff one night, I was bored so I read the entire site. It started off pretty well... I even accepted some of the new agey stuff.... but when I found out that the hydrogen producing "joe cell" was hooked to the intake via a blind hole I nearly choked! That's right, the hose from the cell ran straight to a dead end with NO WAY for the hydrogen to escape into the intake tract....
It's BS, sorry. You don't get something for nothing and it would take more energy to produce hydrogen than you could possibly get out of it. What can I say, Nofate has nailed it to the wall already. It's basic physics.
I found a link to this on the joecell website. Take a look at the horsepower to btu efficiency. I have read some strange references to cavitation that implied some over unity.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:36 AM   #15
nofate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDezert
Hey nofate, how do you know there's not a way to make the process more efficient, aside from a textbook from 1911 to reference and some math for basic electrolysis? What methods have you tried? Have you tried pulsating DC? At what freqs? How about sound and/or RF in the cell?

Right now i've got a core that "boils" a gallon of water, and as soon as i can get a day to go hardware shopping for a few more small pieces i can plumb the system into the klr and do some baseline tests.

And also yes, i mentioned overunity, which i don't beleive i'm getting close to, merely supplimenting a fairly low rpm 650cc engine with a little bit of hho.

Don't waste your time trying to prove me wrong theoretically, i'm far from deterred by your skepticism based on faulty science. Our current theoretical model of physics is still fairly crude and inaccurate.
Good luck with that. I hope you can prove the nay sayers wrong. Really, I do.
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