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Old 11-21-2011, 09:00 PM   #1
MiteyF OP
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ABS... really?

I realize ABS is the way of the future, likely followed by TC, then godknowswhat, as standard on nearly all motorcycles. It seems every new bike I read about online, in magazines etc, touts ABS, and now it seems everyone is obsessed with it; "I'm buying a new bike, and it has to have ABS! What should I get?"

What I HAVEN'T heard is ANYONE with an "ABS saved my life" story. Shit, I haven't even heard anything about ABS kicking in for someone and how it felt. And I waste a LOT of my free time reading about bikes

Now, maybe I'm just a bit "old fashioned" (not likely, I'm only 24 ) but I like my bikes simple. Hell, it took me a few years to accept the fact that I wanted something fuel injected! I don't WANT computers telling me when I want to brake and when I don't, or when I want MORE throttle and when it's a bad idea. Perhaps some part of me feels that making mistakes is the only way to improve your skills. Same with my cars, I don't like power steering, power brakes, electric windows and all that crap that seperates you from the road. I like a steering wheel, 3 pedals, 4 wheels and an engine. But I guess that's why I drive a '62 bug when I feel like taking a break from commuting on the Strom.

So I have a few questions, out of general wonderment mainly... First, has anyone here with an ABS bike actually had it kick in, and what does it feel like? Does anyone here feel the same way I do, that ABS should be a factory OPTION instead of standard equipment? Or do you think that it's a good thing, and that ALL bikes should have ABS (with or without a disabling switch)?

So lets hear it, tell me why I'm a dunce for not wanting computers controlling my motorcycle, and how ABS on bikes is the best thing since sports bras.
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:15 PM   #2
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:57 PM   #3
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I ride mainly offroad....both fuckin' sweet ass dirtbikes, and a lame ass dual sport...I don't want it. (ABS) I rode a F650GS BMW for a while of a friend of mines...ABS got me in trouble more than it saved me. (Never did) Most of this was because their method of turning it off sucked ass. Part of it is because I'm so fuckin' badass that I don't need ABS. [/pui]

As an aside, I do not like to rely on computers for anything. I've flown RC helicopters and airplanes for years, and while I could mix aileron to rudder mixing (or vice versa) I do not do it because if isht goes down, I have to over compensate. Same with exponential control. The same with bikes. I don't want ABS, I don't want linked brakes. It actually gives me less control. I want 100% control in my court, all the time. This way when isht goes wrong I can figure out what caused the problem.

When I say less control it is in that I have less control. It means the bike can stop faster, but given that every circumstance is different, ABS isn't going to be perfect for every situation. It is a band aid for those who can't.

Here's my ABS....one fingered braking. Also See "So Fuckin Badass, ABS isn't Needed" Learn to fuckin' ride people.



Double Aside....As much as many people might bag on DAKEZ for being an asshole when he posts, he is 100% accurate about his statements, and beliefs. I will back him 99.9% of the time in what he types. Ride Assertive, Ride Alert, Ride Forever. Almost every situation can be avoided if you are paying your due diligence. Read my sig.... Nut up and take responsibility instead of "layen' er down.
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Kootenai Rider screwed with this post 11-21-2011 at 10:08 PM Reason: Cause people who rely on ABS are asshats and shouldn't be allowed on 2 wheels....and hate kittens.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:43 PM   #4
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With the counter steering, this abs, to have or not to have, must be the two most popular thread's going. I ride a trail bike which has an abs that you can turn off, just as well, rear abs on dirt is tricky, to say the least. I dont remember the abs ever activating on asphalt, front or back, i hardly use the back brake on asphalt. It would be good if you could have the bike with or without the 'gadget's', or at least be able to turn them off. The linked brake's i can do without. Cars are different story, abs, traction control are real life saver's if you have icy roads.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:50 AM   #5
PSYCHO II
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kootenai Rider View Post
I ride mainly offroad....both fuckin' sweet ass dirtbikes, and a lame ass dual sport...I don't want it. (ABS) I rode a F650GS BMW for a while of a friend of mines...ABS got me in trouble more than it saved me. (Never did) Most of this was because their method of turning it off sucked ass. Part of it is because I'm so fuckin' badass that I don't need ABS. [/pui]

As an aside, I do not like to rely on computers for anything. I've flown RC helicopters and airplanes for years, and while I could mix aileron to rudder mixing (or vice versa) I do not do it because if isht goes down, I have to over compensate. Same with exponential control. The same with bikes. I don't want ABS, I don't want linked brakes. It actually gives me less control. I want 100% control in my court, all the time. This way when isht goes wrong I can figure out what caused the problem.

When I say less control it is in that I have less control. It means the bike can stop faster, but given that every circumstance is different, ABS isn't going to be perfect for every situation. It is a band aid for those who can't.

Here's my ABS....one fingered braking. Also See "So Fuckin Badass, ABS isn't Needed" Learn to fuckin' ride people.


Double Aside....As much as many people might bag on DAKEZ for being an asshole when he posts, he is 100% accurate about his statements, and beliefs. I will back him 99.9% of the time in what he types. Ride Assertive, Ride Alert, Ride Forever. Almost every situation can be avoided if you are paying your due diligence. Read my sig.... Nut up and take responsibility instead of "layen' er down.
We now have a new meaning for BS. Bloddy Spoton. You are absolutely correct ABS only masks the problem and doesn't fix it. Of course if you had ABS and it kicked in only once in 6 months (25,000km) then it was your back up. Not a bad thing either. But if youi rode for 2 hours (less than 200km) and it kicked in over 200 times then there is a real problem.

For myself I always use the tips of all four fingers on dirt or bitumen. Much easier to bring extra progressive pressure if I need it. But lets not get hung up on one or two or four fingers. Let's focus on what you said and keep away from band aid solutions.

PSYCHO II screwed with this post 11-22-2011 at 01:05 AM
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:21 AM   #6
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Yup, I just had a close call where the antilock saved my butt. How you might ask??? It allowed me to maintain complete control of the motorcycle in a panic stop. MSF Advanced Rider course every 3 years and practicing low speed stuff in the driveway as well as 36 years of riding covering 250,000 miles does not make me an expert rider.

The day of the moment was on Kansas RT9 west of New Almelo Kansas in late afternoon of day 3 of a 5 day ride to Denver. Sept 29th, 2011. I live in western NY. While you were sitting in front of a computer in your underwear I was out riding the world.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Al...ed=0CB4Q8gEwAA

However it makes no difference because one of you "experts" will come on here who was NOT there for the oh shit moment of "that is one huge deer dear" and tell me what I did wrong, I can't ride, my ride is a pos etc.

Here is what I think of narrow minded experts and know it alls


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Old 11-22-2011, 04:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ADVNTR View Post
Yup, I just had a close call where the antilock saved my butt. How you might ask??? It allowed me to maintain complete control of the motorcycle in a panic stop. MSF Advanced Rider course every 3 years and practicing low speed stuff in the driveway as well as 36 years of riding covering 250,000 miles does not make me an expert rider.

The day of the moment was on Kansas RT9 west of New Almelo Kansas in late afternoon of day 3 of a 5 day ride to Denver. Sept 29th, 2011. I live in western NY. While you were sitting in front of a computer in your underwear I was out riding the world.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Al...ed=0CB4Q8gEwAA

However it makes no difference because one of you "experts" will come on here who was NOT there for the oh shit moment of "that is one huge deer dear" and tell me what I did wrong, I can't ride, my ride is a pos etc.

Here is what I think of narrow minded experts and know it alls

There are support groups that could help with that....
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:56 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ADVNTR View Post
Yup, I just had a close call where the antilock saved my butt. How you might ask??? It allowed me to maintain complete control of the motorcycle in a panic stop. MSF Advanced Rider course every 3 years and practicing low speed stuff in the driveway as well as 36 years of riding covering 250,000 miles does not make me an expert rider.

The day of the moment was on Kansas RT9 west of New Almelo Kansas in late afternoon of day 3 of a 5 day ride to Denver. Sept 29th, 2011. I live in western NY. While you were sitting in front of a computer in your underwear I was out riding the world.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=New+Al...ed=0CB4Q8gEwAA

However it makes no difference because one of you "experts" will come on here who was NOT there for the oh shit moment of "that is one huge deer dear" and tell me what I did wrong, I can't ride, my ride is a pos etc.

Here is what I think of narrow minded experts and know it alls

Well, for what you're riding (a land yacht) that isn't made to be ultimately controlable, I might be able to understand the "need" for ABS. It's not like you can throw a bike like that around and actually control it due to all it's mass.(and it's geometry/style isn't made to do more than be laxidasical)
F.W.I.W. I've never taken the time to look at it from this point of view before since I've been sticking with 650CC and less Bikes since about 1996. (definitely more controlable bikes by comparison)
Although, I think an agrument could be made against this point of view since, the Guys that are riding these massive bikes should be aware of their lack of ability to control the mass and ride even more prudently. (although I am trying to be more open minded)...Don't take my "ability to control the mass" as a cut on your riding skills...I'm talking physics here.

As for this whole mind set of "needing ABS for panic stops"...
I think this is where Guys like myself and Dakez see things differently. Gain enough control of your mind and maintaining situational awareness eliminates "panic".

We see "panic" as something that arises from the unexpected and the unexpected only happens when you aren't paying attention. As for the automated response to that panic to grab a fistful/footfull of brake and lock things up;
That's something that can be overcome when you have enough skill and know just how hard you can apply the brakes before they lock up. The confidence that you gain in your abilities, overcomes the fear and allows you to maintain control. "Panic" simply vanishes as you realize YOU CAN maintain control.

I can see ABS being an aide in some cases, like training beginner riders to learn threshold braking. The ABS kicks in, they realize they did something wrong, they practice their techniques to the point where the ABS doesn't kick on...now they can graduate to a bike without the training wheels.

I definitely don't consider myself to be an "expert" by any means but, I have been a motorcycle commuter for many yrs, in many types of weather (including getting caught in ice/sleet/snow storms). I can honestly say ABS has never saved my Bacon as none of my bikes have had it. That being said, if I haven't yet needed it, I never will.

ABS might have kept me off the road surface the several times I lost control (when I locked up my brakes) while learning threshold braking in my youth but, having accomplished those lessons; I can see no need for an ABS equipped bike in my future.
Here's a hint as to why....
Riding along on a snow/freshly rained on road with very little safety margin to the sides where Bambi might just jump out in front of me (maybe even 2 up) I'll be riding at a speed/level of alertness to suit the conditions so I can maintain control even IF Bambi makes a suicide leap in front of me. (I've been in that situation although not 2 up, and stopped right between it's legs and had it beat the shit out of an old DR650's front fender getting away, and I continued on unscathed)
The above doesn't make me an "expert" but, it does point to a certain level of skill in judgement.



To show a certain level of open mindedness here, I'll give in and say that I can see ABS as a beneficial system for;
1. The occassional weekend warrior who never gets to KNOW their bikes abilities
2. Beginners who haven't learned how to overcome panic or learned threshold braking.

There ya go Pro-ABS crowd, you finally got me to admit there's at least 2 situations where it might be a good crutch...er, ummmn..I mean...idea.

rivercreep screwed with this post 11-22-2011 at 05:08 AM
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:12 AM   #9
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I would bet you pink slips that on a dry tarmac surface my ABS equiped R1200 will outstop a non-ABS model every time. You are echoing the exact same arguments that cagers made when ABS started appearing in cars. Off road it sucks, and I hate the process I have to go through to turn it off.. but I do. During MSF courses my big ass GSA stops short of the line where they begin to measure for the emergency stop drill.

In my one major get off I was T-boned by a car from the right... I tried an emergency swerve manuever to make it around the car when I saw I was going to T-bone him... we recreated the scenario at the MSF range up and Schofield/Wheeler and we proved that if I had simply laid on the ABS equiped brakes I could have stopped short... we then turned off the ABS and every time I would have T-boned the car. We actually filmed the test for an Army safety video they were producing, but they didnt use the footage because they wanted it to be all Army..no stinking Marines

This "learn to ride" excuse is bullshit and you are simply technology and in doing so putting yourself, your passengers and whomever you may take out in the process in danger. IMHO
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:20 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post
I would bet you pink slips that on a dry tarmac surface my ABS equiped R1200 will outstop a non-ABS model every time. You are echoing the exact same arguments that cagers made when ABS started appearing in cars. Off road it sucks, and I hate the process I have to go through to turn it off.. but I do. During MSF courses my big ass GSA stops short of the line where they begin to measure for the emergency stop drill.

In my one major get off I was T-boned by a car from the right... I tried an emergency swerve manuever to make it around the car when I saw I was going to T-bone him... we recreated the scenario at the MSF range up and Schofield/Wheeler and we proved that if I had simply laid on the ABS equiped brakes I could have stopped short... we then turned off the ABS and every time I would have T-boned the car. We actually filmed the test for an Army safety video they were producing, but they didnt use the footage because they wanted it to be all Army..no stinking Marines

This "learn to ride" excuse is bullshit and you are simply technology and in doing so putting yourself, your passengers and whomever you may take out in the process in danger. IMHO
In your ABS vs non ABS equipped BMW comparison...who is at the controls of each?
That could be a major variable.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:31 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by mrt10x View Post

In my one major get off I was T-boned by a car from the right... I tried an emergency swerve manuever to make it around the car when I saw I was going to T-bone him... we recreated the scenario at the MSF range up and Schofield/Wheeler and we proved that if I had simply laid on the ABS equiped brakes I could have stopped short... we then turned off the ABS and every time I would have T-boned the car.
Anecdotal at best since WE don't know what your abilities are.
Give us a hint as to HOW your BMW reacted when you were performing the braking with the ABS off. Did the wheels lock up?, did you skid? etc?

As for the accident you had, have you ever gone over the accident to see how it could have been avoided to begin with or IF there were other methods to employ other than braking, at all?
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:35 AM   #12
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But I guess it HAS been a few days since the last rant on ABS!

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Old 11-22-2011, 05:56 AM   #13
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Anecdotal at best since WE don't know what your abilities are.
Give us a hint as to HOW your BMW reacted when you were performing the braking with the ABS off. Did the wheels lock up?, did you skid? etc?

As for the accident you had, have you ever gone over the accident to see how it could have been avoided to begin with or IF there were other methods to employ other than braking, at all?
Oh absolutely.. I could have avoided the accident by doing what I had done a 1000 times before and a 1000 times after.. I definately made a mistake. Legally the accident was 100% the cagers fault, but I personally believe most accidents on a motorcycle can be avoided by a good rider... I was late, lazy and not riding defensively enough. None of this changes the fact that if used properly the ABS would have stopped me short if I had trusted it. That is always the purpose of ABS, to make up for mistakes the driver/rider probably made... but I still say it will always be better to have it in that situation than to not have it.. the other 99.9% of the time you dont need it and it doesnt come into play,,but it will always be there just in case... how in the world can you say that is a bad thing?

The test was performed by me, riding for about 7 years at the time with probably 150k miles on a couple different bikes, and the MSF instructor who was a former road and offroad professional racer who had retired to HI years before. He had been a MSF instructor for over 20 years.

The ABS on a bike feels a lot like the ABS on a car... stops you shorter,,keeps you dead straight,, avoids high sides... judging from the results I see at the MSF Advance rider course,, I have to take it every 3 years in the military, my ABS 500-600lb R1200GSA always stops shorter than any bike in the class.. including much lighter and smaller bikes. Of course you can argue that every rider in that particular course doesnt know how to use their brakes,,, but come on.
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MiteyF View Post



What I HAVEN'T heard is ANYONE with an "ABS saved my life" story. Shit, I haven't even heard anything about ABS kicking in for someone and how it felt. And I waste a LOT of my free time reading about bikes

.
You're not reading very hard then -- they're all over these forums. You are choosing to ignore them.

Oh, and

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Old 11-22-2011, 06:17 AM   #15
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Oh absolutely.. I could have avoided the accident by doing what I had done a 1000 times before and a 1000 times after.. I definately made a mistake. Legally the accident was 100% the cagers fault, but I personally believe most accidents on a motorcycle can be avoided by a good rider... I was late, lazy and not riding defensively enough. None of this changes the fact that if used properly the ABS would have stopped me short if I had trusted it. That is always the purpose of ABS, to make up for mistakes the driver/rider probably made... but I still say it will always be better to have it in that situation than to not have it.. the other 99.9% of the time you dont need it and it doesnt come into play,,but it will always be there just in case... how in the world can you say that is a bad thing?

The test was performed by me, riding for about 7 years at the time with probably 150k miles on a couple different bikes, and the MSF instructor who was a former road and offroad professional racer who had retired to HI years before. He had been a MSF instructor for over 20 years.

The ABS on a bike feels a lot like the ABS on a car... stops you shorter,,keeps you dead straight,, avoids high sides... judging from the results I see at the MSF Advance rider course,, I have to take it every 3 years in the military, my ABS 500-600lb R1200GSA always stops shorter than any bike in the class.. including much lighter and smaller bikes. Of course you can argue that every rider in that particular course doesnt know how to use their brakes,,, but come on.
Well, I see we agree where it matters most.

F.W.I.W. I'm not saying ABS is bad (at least not to the point that I once did) and I really do feel that for a good majority of the riding public (that accounts for about 99% of the people in my area who put their bikes away for the winter) ABS can be a good thing.
I have no right to judge another riders skill level (and it's something I'm trying to stop doing) but I can tell you this; I have no need for it and my main point of contention is that, as it becomes standard equipment, I'll be forced to pay for it.

As for ABS in general, I can give you testimonial that my 2006 Suzuki Forenza Wgn can stop in a shorter distance with the ABS deactivated (I've pulled the fuse to test it out) on dry pavement than it can when it's active.
On ice/light snow, I'll also give ABS the nod.
In snow, I've been known to pull the fuse when the snow is still deep on the roads because, there are situations like that when a car/truck can stop faster (in a straight line) when the snow can build up in front of the front wheels when the brakes lock up.
I wish the damn car had a switch to deactivate it, when it would be beneficial. (at least you have that option on your bike)

One of the things that I think polarizes our opinions on ABS is our own personal experiences with it.

Let me ask the pro-ABS crowd this...
If I have the skill to not lock up my brakes on freshly rained on roads, snow covered roads etc. (on my Bikes) and I can control my mind enough to not "panic" and lock up my brakes; what possible need do I have for it?
I am my own ABS system.
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