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Old 10-12-2008, 07:03 AM   #136
Armadillofz1
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Did you remap?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mad dog driver
Put the SBK can on yesterday. 10 3/4 pounds for the stock can; 4 3/4 pounds for the SBK.

Did the batt disconnect, and the 15 min idle. Took it out for a 6 mile ride.

Got home, and after the pipe cooled for a bit, I took it off and put the stocker back on.

With the five hole Euro disk in place, way more noise than I will be able to live with. But the biggest problem with the SBK was a big hole, read flat, in the bottom end torque. That's to bad, I really had high hopes. Oh well.

The difference in weight is not as much as I thought. But the performance lost is just not acceptable. That dog won't hunt.

So, SBK can for sale. Hardly used, low miles, no damage, no drops or scratches. $350.00, and I pay for shipping, read ground, anywhere in the lower 48.
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Old 10-12-2008, 07:33 AM   #137
DirtJack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewtwo
Hey Mad Dog,
About our new LV pipes, I'm with ya on that flat rsponce under 5k rpm. Did you try map #2 (agressive). It's much better than #3 (mid) w/ the LV. I could be dreaming, but is it possible for the EFI/ECU to continue to recalibrate over a period of time?... Cause I swear on map#2, the more I ride, the stronger the low/mid pull becomes. I do however believe the issue is the result of the leaner condition caused by easier breathing pipe. I'm not giving up on my LV. I'm going to see if the system continues to compensate on #2, or, there is always the Akro. remap my dealer has. FYI, my 690 runs best with db reducer and spark arrestor for back prssure. Good Luck.....Going riding!
Dewtwo, I'm with you. I got one of the first James sent out, but it didn't have the db reducer. My wheelie meter says it provides better low rpm punch than stock pipe. I notice much more difference between map settings 2 and 3 than with stock pipe. Also, setting 1 seems to provide more power than with stock pipe. My only wish is for less sound.

Finally, you have to let the engine get really warmed up before drawing conclusions. The Keihin FI systems run with a fixed fuel map until all of the sensors are fully up to operating temperatures before switching over to loopback operation.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:40 PM   #138
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My bike is pulling very hard through the entire RPM range, I only experienced flat spots with the stock can.
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Old 10-12-2008, 07:55 PM   #139
Dewtwo
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Did about 50 miles today w/ new LV pipe. Did comparison testing on mostly very familiar, on and off road routes. It is definitly down on power. Has lean condition symptoms. I would like to try remap of ECU/EFI. Iv'e read about great results from several people, and one guy w/ bad results (maybe remap gone wrong). I would like to find out first if dealer could recalibrate back to original map if needed. Does anyone know?...
I really want this pipe to work, It looks cooler than stock, sounds tough, it's lighter, and no more skin grafts.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:10 PM   #140
Armadillofz1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewtwo
Did about 50 miles today w/ new LV pipe. Did comparison testing on mostly very familiar, on and off road routes. It is definitly down on power. Has lean condition symptoms. I would like to try remap of ECU/EFI. Iv'e read about great results from several people, and one guy w/ bad results (maybe remap gone wrong). I would like to find out first if dealer could recalibrate back to original map if needed. Does anyone know?...
I really want this pipe to work, It looks cooler than stock, sounds tough, it's lighter, and no more skin grafts.
Yes we can
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:46 AM   #141
Dewtwo
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Thanks Armadillo,
Sounds like you know a thing or two about this mapping stuff. Is it your opinion that the Akra. remap install will bring my 690e to life w/ the LV pipe?
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:09 AM   #142
Armadillofz1
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absolutely. it will make a huge improvement
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:44 AM   #143
mad dog driver
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re-map

No, I did not remap. The local dealer here on the Gulf Coast does not have a map available. The dealer in Louisville where I purchased the bike does not have a new map available.

So....If i can not sell the can, then i will wait for power commander. It is my understanding that a pc for the 690 will be out shortly.

Got cash guns food and gold?
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:28 AM   #144
bigborefan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad dog driver
No, I did not remap. The local dealer here on the Gulf Coast does not have a map available. The dealer in Louisville where I purchased the bike does not have a new map available.

So....If i can not sell the can, then i will wait for power commander. It is my understanding that a pc for the 690 will be out shortly.

Got cash guns food and gold?

What's a Power Commander?
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:56 AM   #145
Armadillofz1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mad dog driver
No, I did not remap. The local dealer here on the Gulf Coast does not have a map available. The dealer in Louisville where I purchased the bike does not have a new map available.

So....If i can not sell the can, then i will wait for power commander. It is my understanding that a pc for the 690 will be out shortly.

Got cash guns food and gold?
the maps are free on ktms dealer site. However they require a $2250.00 diag tool to put them in. Its a steep pricetag for a small dealership to absorb. Its unfortunate that its so expensive.
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:36 AM   #146
Dewtwo
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Hi Armadillo,
Thanks for info. My dealer did get map from his KTM dealer website. But does not have the diag. tool. His rep. told him $700 for the unit. May be a couple of different units to be had. My dealer said he may try to borrow, or rent from another dealer to remap my 690e. You seem to be more knowledgeable than most of our dealers. So, if you don't mind, feed us any info. on EFI and mapping. This stuff is a mistery to us old carb. and jets guys.
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:10 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillofz1
absolutely. it will make a huge improvement
I put an Akrapovic pipe on my 690 enduro. I just did the "let it idle" thing for about 15 mins or so as instructed by my dealer. The bike runs heaps better than with the old pipe. I was under the impression that this is the bike doing it's own "re-mapping" for the new pipe.

Is this correct? If not, then what exactly is this "re-mapping" you are talking about?
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:18 AM   #148
DirtJack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewtwo
Hi Armadillo,
Thanks for info. My dealer did get map from his KTM dealer website. But does not have the diag. tool. His rep. told him $700 for the unit. May be a couple of different units to be had. My dealer said he may try to borrow, or rent from another dealer to remap my 690e. You seem to be more knowledgeable than most of our dealers. So, if you don't mind, feed us any info. on EFI and mapping. This stuff is a mistery to us old carb. and jets guys.
I'm wondering if the tool is different than the one for the LC8 FI motors?
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Old 10-13-2008, 03:10 PM   #149
Seth S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewtwo
Hi Armadillo,
Thanks for info. My dealer did get map from his KTM dealer website. But does not have the diag. tool. His rep. told him $700 for the unit. May be a couple of different units to be had. My dealer said he may try to borrow, or rent from another dealer to remap my 690e. You seem to be more knowledgeable than most of our dealers. So, if you don't mind, feed us any info. on EFI and mapping. This stuff is a mistery to us old carb. and jets guys.
Well Carbs use needles and jets to match the correct flow of fuel to the flow of air. Its a simple "stupid" system that has proved to be very reliable over the years. I call it stupid because a carb has no way of adjusting for changes in the environment....like temperature, humidity, elevation etc. To make changes you have to play with the jets to get the desired effect.

Step into EFI. EFI uses several basic sensors to gather data on how the engine is behaving and under what conditions the engine is seeing. A generic EFI system will have either a MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure) or an air flow sensor of some sort. The MAP sensor measures the pressure in the intake manifold....with max vacuum indicating a closed throttle and atmospheric pressure indicating wide open throttle (WOT). Air flow meters typicaly use a thin piece of wire spanning the airflow stream. A current is passed through the wire and the wire heats up. The sensor then measures the amount of current or voltage required to maintain the resistance in the wire...or the temperature in a way. Based on the voltage drop or increase you can derive the amount of air flowing over the wire along with the air density. The Some systems have an air flow meter that simply uses a flap to indicate the amount of air flowing in....these are usualy on earlier systems.

The next sensor used in the basic system is the engine temperature sensor which usualy reads the temperature of the coolant in the head or heads. This sensor indicates whether the engine has reached normal operating temperature (NOT). Most systems will start up solely with input from the temperature sensor and the air flow measuring device. Once the temperature sensor indicates the engine has warmed up then the engine will start looking at the O2 sensor input.


O2 sensor. The 02 sensor is a little device that constantly probes the amount of Oxygen present in the exhaust gases. The sensor has some fancy metals within that generate a voltage that fluctuates between 0volt and 1volt. .5 volts indicates a perfect stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1.....in English this means that there is a perfect ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel. Air of course is about 21% Oxygen and about 78% Nitrogen with the remaining 1% being other odd trace gases. The O2 sensor has to warm up in order to work properly and most newer O2 sensors have a heating circuit to get them up to temp faster. The O2 sensor tells the engine computer how rich or lean the engine is running...the catch is that it really tells the computer how rich or lean the engine was running as it takes a little time for the exhaust from the combustion event to hit the O2 sensor.


Ok so you have an air flow device, a temperature sensor, and an Oxygen sensor. Most newer systems are tied into the ignition system and also utilize a crank position sensor or a cam position sensor and there may be additional sensors that make things even more precise. The core 3 mentioned above will work for now. So you turn your key on, The fuel pump usualy charges the system for a second and shuts off. The computer goes through its start up cycle and then waits for input. You hit the starter button. Based on the temperature reading the computer opts for the appropriate cold start map and delivers the prescribed amount of fuel. The airflow/mass/map meter starts inputing information and the bike fires to life. The temp sensor reads cold, the air coming in is cold and dense as it has been raining. The computer takes the data from each sensor and in essence goes to a data table. At time instant A it finds the temp reading on the table and traces over to the airflow reading and finds the appropriate cycle time for it's fuel injector.....it does this process constantly. When the temperature sensor reports the appropriate temperature indicating that the bike has warmed up the computer then starts listening to all of its sensors and reacting accordingly. This moment in time is called closed loop operation. Basically The engine injects fuel, the fuel burns and goes out the exhaust. Heat goes into the cylinder head and the coolant. The exhaust flows past the O2 sensor which reports back to the computer a few milliseconds later. The computer then says ok....I am running too rich according to my O2 sensor so it reduces the amount of fuel on the next injection cycle. this process repeats.


Now your stock EFI bike came with a catylitic converter...or your own personal sun. In the Cat there are Oxydation and Reduction Beds made of Platinum and.....um some other material I cannot remember. These beds process rich and lean exhaust mixtures and create a secondary burn and combination process that results in the cleaner exhaust. My memory of all the science in there is a bit rough but they do work...and heat is a major byproduct.

So with that said what is mapping all about. Well mapping refers to the parameters that dictate how the computer is going to react based on the running data it receives from its sensors. Mapping is the equivalent to changine jets and needles in the carb....only at a much faster and much more precise rate. You might compare the mapping process to a carb with 100,000 jets that allow for every combination of airflow and fuel flow in a given ride. The good thing is that the computer is always trying to maintain that 14.7:1 exhaust ratio unless that target ratio is changed..so if you put a new exhaust on and don't touch the mapping and the engine leans out...the computer will do everything in its power to richen the engine. The limits are of course the bounds of the mapping, the fuel pressure, and the size of the injector(s).

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:16 PM   #150
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Thanks Seth...very easy to understand. What are the possibilities of modifing the injector,fuel pump or sensors to provide for richer burn beyond the parameters of the map? In effect isn't that what the pc is doing?
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