Russia and Georgia go to war.

[Colebatch]

Originally Posted by Redne Dab

Maybe some of the Europeans feel that their interests are more in line with the US than with Russia. The US may not be a shining example of virtue and success but in comparison to Russia, it is a very good partner. Especially for countries that value democracy and the rule of law.

I have never been to Russia but I am a longtime student of Russian history and I have a lot of good friends who live there now. There are almost no laws, nothing is enforced unless a bribe is involved, the war in Chechnya makes the war in Iraq look like slap-fighting, the Bush election in 2000 was slimey but the transfer from Putin to Medvedev is positively vile.

At the moment Russia has oil & prospects. These are not the makings of good allies.

I agree with you ... some Europeans do feel their interests are more closely with the US than Russia. In particular the British and the new EU Eastern Europeans. And that is precisely what is holding Europe back. The Brits as a deliberate matter of policy (when was the last time you saw Britain take anything other than the US line in the UN, NATO or even in the EU for that matter) and the Eastern Europeans as a combination of utter geopolitical naivity (As the French say - they miss no shortage of perfectly good opportunities to shut up) and juvenile bitterness towards Russia (the US had the same bitterness towards Britain for the first half of the 1800s - for strategic purposes a country needs to grow up and get over it - we could all still be bitter at the Germans for 2 world wars, but its far better to deal with them on a real, rather than emotional basis).

But its not a question of who you like more. Its a question of what best serves your interests. I like New Zealanders, but being their allies adds almost no value to anything. I like Georgians, but being their allies is asking for trouble.

You also have to bear in mind the "civilising" influence of the EU. Its why the EU rushed in Spain, Portugal and Greece, even though prior to membership they were all going thru military dictatorships. By rushing them in well before it was appropriate, the EU was able to lock in a more progressive structure into those countries, which 25 ish years later is now embedded.

Not that corruption in Spain is still not rampant, mind you.

Germany is another good example ... by getting Germany into NATO and the EU as soon as possible after WWII, the countries of western europe had that big loose cannon on the same team, and tamed it that way. If they refused to let Germany into the EU and NATO in the 1950s as some sort of punishment for past deeds, where would Germany be now? It may well be big and hostile again. That would not have been in the US or western Europes interest back in the mid - late 20th century any more than having Russia outside the EU and a common European defense system does now. Somehow politicians back then were a bit more strategic and visionary than they are now. They are a bunch of amateur hacks these days.

As for oil and prospects not making good allies? It works well for the US and Saudi Arabia and has done for 70 years. And I would suggest the Saudis are dramatically less progressive and democratic than the Russians and culturally diametrically opposed to their allies, the US. The Russians and the Europeans on the other hand are culturally very similar. Its an infinitely better match. the whole Saudi thing is a perfect example of countries not having "friends", but rather having "interests".

As for laws in Russia, After around 100 visits there over 14 years I can tell you that the picture there is usually incredibly misrepresented. All my business there is on the basis of a persons word and a handshake. I am yet to have a problem.

Corruption is a big problem at a high level ... large government contracts etc ... I would say its the single biggest problem facing Russia today - and the Russians know it. But there are countless examples of that happening all over the world. In the US, in the UK, in Germany, in Poland, in Saudi Arabia, in Italy, in Japan ... all to varying degrees. In Ukraine I would argue that corruption is worse than in Russia ... yet Ukraine qualifies as "our friend". Why is that?

The handover of power from Putin to Medvedev served Russia interests. You want it more democratic? But thats serving your interests, not Russias. Your interests and Russias interests are not one and the same thing. Russia's leaders are there to serve Russia's interests, surely. Despite all the criticism from Tony Blair, George Bush and US/UK mouthpiece journals like the Economist over the past 8 years saying this that and the other decision by Putin is "not in Russia's interests" ... incredibly (depite the disingeuous advice from Blair and Bush about what Russia's interests are) Russia has become 10 times more influential in the world than it was 8 years ago and approximately 10 times richer (Russia's GDP in 1998 was 190 billion USD, this year its about 1.8 trillion). Its gone 8 years ago from an economic basket case to now Europe's largest Automobile market ... They are selling more new cars there than Germany, Britain or France. By about 2014 it will be Europe's largest economy full stop. That shows that doing what the US and Britain want Russia to do is merely doing what is in The US interest, and following its own path is in Russia's interest. Putin's job has been to act in Russia's interests (which is not necessarily to be mates with Tony Blair or GW) and like him or not, we have to be neutral and honest enough to acknowledge that he has done a remarkable job of acting in Russia's interests.

In fact I would go so far as to say he has been the most outstanding global leader since the likes of Nixon or de Gaulle. Certainly since the turn of the millennium, no-one has advanced his or her country's interests as far as Putin has.

[Visian]

Originally Posted by Joseph Stalin

Europeans have to wake up and realise Russia is not part of their problem, it is the solution to advancing European interests globally.

[Colebatch]

Visian - you just showed me a picture of a Georgian. Stalin never is, or was or will be a Russian or represented Russia.

Were you purporting that we can never be friends with the country that produced Stalin? If so, we should introduce sanctions against Georgia, not Russia.

Whats more, if I post a picture of Hitler, does it mean we should not allow Germany in NATO or the EU?

Not only is Stalin Georgian, but there is still a museum honouring him in Georgia. There is a shrine at his house of birth - in Gori no less. The same Gori the Russians have been hassling - maybe we should join the Russians and destroy the monuments to this Georgian beast? Stalin was the one who led the fight to make Georgia communist. Thats how he came to power. Unlike Hitler, whse monuments the Germans all destroyed, Stalins monuments live on in Georgia. And yet Bush says the Georgians are the good guys and our friends ... oh its so confusing. ;-)

[Visian]

Originally Posted by Colebatch

Visian - you just showed me a picture of a Georgian. Stalin never is, or was or will be a Russian or represented Russia.

never represented russia, really? i believe he led the soviet union, of which russia was the central player. he could be martian, for all that matters to the argument.

Were you purporting that we can never be friends with the country that produced Stalin? If so, we should introduce sanctions against Georgia, not Russia.

no, i am purporting that stalin, at the end of ww2, made the same argument as you did in your original post. of course, we made much the same pitch, except we rebuilt their countries and protected their people from the russian/soviet gulags, etc.

whatever.

And yet Bush says the Georgians are the good guys and our friends ... oh its so confusing. ;-)

ok... now i understand your perspective.

[haggeo]

send palin to sort it out, she's from alaska, right near russia.....

[Zapp22]

my how the story has changed.
At least its inching closer to the truth. Now its "well, we told Misha not to go murderin' his own, that it was all a russian chess move, but they wouldn't listen".

this is a far far cry from the weeklong disinformation campaign that Bush & Rice staged

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7623555.stm

"'Deeply disconcerting'

Speaking at an event organised by the German Marshall Fund in Washington, Ms Rice acknowledged that Georgia had fired the first shots in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.


Ms Rice said Russia had tried to dismember Georgia

"The Georgian government launched a major military operation into Tskhinvali [the capital of South Ossetia] and other areas of that separatist region," she said.

"Regrettably, several Russian peacekeepers were killed in the fighting," she added.

But Ms Rice said that Russia had escalated the conflict.

"Russia's leaders violated Georgia's sovereignty and territorial integrity and launched a full-scale invasion across an internationally recognised border," she said, adding that Russia had also violated the terms of a ceasefire negotiated by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Ms Rice said it had been "deeply disconcerting" that Russia had tried to "dismember" Georgia by recognising Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and argued that Russia's actions were part of what she described as a "worsening pattern of behaviour".

"I refer... to Russia's intimidation of its sovereign neighbours, its use of oil and gas as a political weapon... its threat to target peaceful neighbours with nuclear weapons... and its persecution - or worse - of Russian journalists and dissidents," she added.

Pledging help to rebuild Georgia, Ms Rice said the US and Europe would not let Russia benefit from aggression.

'Taking the bait'

Ms Rice admitted that Georgia could have responded better to the events last month in South Ossetia.

We will not allow Russia to wield a veto over the future of our Euro-Atlantic community

Condoleezza Rice

"We warned our Georgian friends that Russia was baiting them, and that taking this bait would only play into Moscow's hands," she said.

[Zapp22]

While the evil twins Barack Obama and John McCain continue to spout campaign lies about the "Evil Russian Bear" menacing USA interests, slavishly repeating the Bush Bilge about Russia invading "unprovoked" poor little Georgia, real reporters from the BBC, together with observers of Human Rights Watch have proven the reverse. Bush lied. Rice lied. Obama continues to lie [and plan to spend money chasing phantom Russian bad guys] along with his straight-man McCain. At least Secretary Rice had the character to recently tell a conference in the UK that Georgia had indeed handled the matters poorly and it was "regretable" that Russians were killed [first] in their military maneuvers, sparking the Russian response.

In an odd turnabout, this whole sorry incident gives me new hope. I don't mean phony Obama hope I mean REAL hope, because it illustrates what a few honest and dedicated reporters from largely secondary news outfits and "alternative media" can do to reveal TRUTH. Your White House and State Department harnessed the lapdog Big Media to repeat its FALSE Version of the conflict "early and often", with a hurried-up Script about how evil Putin seized on the opportunity of the Olympic diversion to work his madness on poor little Georgia. But from the very beginning, I knew and a lotta the guys on this thread knew we were once again being fed a sucker's line that was 100% reversed from the real truth. But soon videos started popping up on YouTube from civilians [even some American citizens] in the area that were eyewitnesses to the unprovoked genocidal nighttime attack by the Georgian regulars and their American & Israeli handlers. Stories of American and Israeli covert-ops deaths, with their papers etc seized by Russian soldiers began surfacing. All the while the duped Big Media kept repeating the lies, and Talkshow hosts were fed their talking points about a "resurgent Soviet", and the "Russian Bear" ready to restart all the old conflicts Deja Vu. All lies. All false.

And Obama STILL repeats this bilgewater unchallenged, and unswayed by the facts as they are now well-known.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm

"British Foreign Secretary David Miliband has told the BBC the attack on South Ossetia was "reckless".

He said he had raised the issue of possible Georgian war crimes with the government in Tbilisi.

The evidence was gathered by the BBC on the first unrestricted visit to South Ossetia by a foreign news organisation since the conflict.

Georgia's attempt to re-conquer the territory triggered a Russian invasion and the most serious crisis in relations between the Kremlin and the West since the Cold War."

"The BBC has discovered evidence that Georgia may have committed war crimes in its attack on its breakaway region of South Ossetia in August.

Eyewitnesses have described how its tanks fired directly into an apartment block, and how civilians were shot at as they tried to escape the fighting.

Research by the international investigative organisation Human Rights Watch also points to indiscriminate use of force by the Georgian military, and the possible deliberate targeting of civilians.

Indiscriminate use of force is a violation of the Geneva Conventions, and serious violations are considered to be war crimes.

The allegations are now raising concerns among Georgia's supporters in the West."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7692751.stm

"Allison Gill, director of the Moscow office of Human Rights Watch, said: "We're very concerned at the use of indiscriminate force by the Georgian military in Tskhinvali.

"Tskhinvali is a densely populated city and as such military action needs to be very careful that it doesn't endanger civilians."

"We know that in the early stages there were tank attacks and Grad rockets used by Georgian forces," she added.

"Grad rockets cannot be used in densely populated areas because they cannot be precisely targeted, and as such they are inherently indiscriminate.

"Our researchers were on the ground in Tskhinvali as early as 12 August.

"And we gained evidence and witness testimony of Grad rocket attacks and tank attacks on apartment buildings, including tank attacks that shot at the basement level.

"And basements are typically areas where civilians will hide for their own protection.

"So all of this points to the misuse, the inappropriate use of force by Georgia against civilian targets," according to Alison Gill. "

I hope and pray that the groundswell of outrage over the USA and Israel's role in this near-genocidal assault grows so great that Bush & Co. will finally have to publicly admit, in a broad response, that they lied. I hope that every caring American, and other truth-respecting critical-thinking world citizens will see this entire incident as a massive wakeup call.

"QUESTION AUTHORITY"! Question the mass media! Question every so-called provocational "incident" where there is a rush by American propagandists to "spin" some convenient storyline.

Call the Obama and McCain campaigns and demand that they come clean about this story and stop the beating of Phony War drums.

edit add: one astute Obama blogster made this observation after the last debate [notwithstanding he is in Obama's camp]:
"Obama may have made a major mistake by (retroactively) adopting -- verbatim --- McCain's position on Russia. Obama has made it clear to everyone tonight that he supports McCain's belligerent stance vis a vis Russia. Obama backs the provocative Western plan to invite Georgia and Ukraine into NATO. Although arguably it is an important position he would want to maintain as a bargaining chip. Maybe Obama is just realistic; he assumes he does not have the credibility to shift the neocon-directed foreign policy concensus during a campaign. (Note: I blogged about NATO expansion here and here)."