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Old 08-14-2008, 11:22 AM   #1
gs/grog OP
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Time for more Rallymoto classes?

I started this discussion on the "Atlantic Rallymoto Cup points", thread but think it warrents it's own thread and will be easier to find.

I would like the organizers to consider adding a few more classes. I think adding a 0-250cc and 250 - 500cc with Production and Mod. divisions for each. would be about right. It would bring some interesting bikes into the sport and give women and the near elderly (me) a comfortable platform to race on.

I have tried too think of all the pros and cons and would welcome discussion.

Potential cons I can think of;

Added complexity: Not much really. The trophies are cheap. My local Hare scrambles org offers 22 classes.

The fields are already full: I don't think they all are..

Fuel range: All the true "duel sports" I can think of have at least 100 mile range.

Too slow: I think we would have to have a bogy time limit but unitl someone shows up with a DR200 I think the speeds would be respectable. (Have you ridden a Yamaha WR250R yet? They rip it up pretty good.)

Pros:

You can run for 5th place in class insted of 29th.

More bike choices.

Can be cheaper.


Whatdayathink?
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:42 AM   #2
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Hi Greg:

Yup, can't see anything wrong with the proposal. Bobby is right with Husky's 310 comming out, that will be a great NETRA bike, as long as the mapping is on. I'm sure Anders will pipe in shortly, then again he is probably out enjoying his new 610 TE I'm sure that there will be allot of positive responses and let's grow this sport!!! Steak tips and Bud lite for all!!!!
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:23 PM   #3
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Dunno if we need two more size classes, one might suffice.

Say 0-399.99, 400-649.99, 650+. As I understand it, a WR250R and a DRZ400 aren't that mismatched, output-wise (or price-wise).

Should I even mention multi-cylinder displacement multipliers?
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:28 PM   #4
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I believe Anders said that they didn't want the field getting too big. Too many vehicles and the stages get too unmanageable to run efficiently and timely.

Also as their are transit stages on public roads, everything needs to be street legal. This is common for all rallies.

I say, got a little street legal bike, enter it. At the Sand Blast the guy on the DRZ 400 did pretty well for himself and looked like he was having fun.
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Old 08-15-2008, 05:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Mo
I'm sure Anders will pipe in shortly, then again he is probably out enjoying his new 610 TE
Exactly. You people go on and discuss all the "rules" you want, if it's daylight... I'm out riding.

As to the cheap trophies... take a closer look next time.

How about this philosophical question: if you had to come up with one class to add for next year that would be good for the sport, what would it be?
  • Small bike class?
  • Old man class?
  • Historic bike class?
  • ?

The flip side to all of these ideas is: "How many people do you think are not competing because there isn't one of not-currently-existing classes?" As in, "Oh yeah, I know all about RallyMoto(tm), how it works and how much fun it is, but till they have a <300cc class, I'm not interested?"

Oops, sun's up, I'm outta here!

Cheers,
ANders
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chromer
Should I even mention multi-cylinder displacement multipliers?
No, please don't.

With the fields we have right now, where a 1200 or a 950 can come in behind a 550, it's clear that the rider, much more than the bike, is making the difference. Thus we only need to split the classes in the most general ways. "Small bike" might be a general class, but as soon as you get multi-cyclinder multipliers, you also get multipliers for number of intake valves and who knows what else. All of which is an attempt to bring "parity" and "fairness" to a class.

Last time I checked "parity" didn't make one's balls bigger, and that seems to be what's making people win or not.

Cheers,
Anders
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:56 AM   #7
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At the last event I dont think there were any bikes smaller then a 450..or a 400. At Sandblast I dont think there was anything smaller then a 400 and at Black River Last year I dont remember anything smaller then a 400. If there were a sudden influx of people competing on 250 sized bikes and said bikes proved to be non competitive in comparison to the 400+ bikes then I could see the need for a class. If 1 or 2 small displacement bikes enter the odd event then I guess I don't see the need to create more classes. I think in the beginning there were a lot of classes but they have widdled down to a few basics that seem to be working well with the current fielding of machines....as in the 400's are proving to hold there own just fine with the 650's and 1200's.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:27 AM   #8
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Thanks guys, All good points.

My motive for bringing this up is selfish. I'm trying to decide what to buy to replace my 640. It was too big and heavy for me to race in events like Sandblast. So I'm going smaller/lighter but how small and light will be determinged by discussions like this. I'm a competitive person (not to be confused with good). So I at least want to think the bike I choose will be competitive in it's class even if I'm not. With the current rules that means a 540 EXCW or Husky 510. I am however pretty excited about the new 250 -310s coming out. But won't get one without a real class to run in.

I'm "in" anyway we go. I love this sport, just looking for a new horse. I"m not anti "big". I'm keeping my 12GS for Rally TN. and the Alcan 5000.


Too answer some points being made:

- I,m not proposing bigger fields. Just more classes. You can run a small bike now.

- "There are no bikes currently being entered smaller then 400's."
That is my point. I realize that I can run a "small" bike now if I want. But why would I? It is a compitition after all. I can trail ride anytime.

- Street legel.
I'm glad this point was raised. This is a whole other issue that I think needs to be addressed soon. I think we shoud only be running factory "duel sports". Sold as street leagle bikes. Here is why.

I think it hasn't been much of an issue because most "big bikes" come that way. I know Mark's first win was on a "plated XR" and there was some grumbling about that. But I'm not aware of many others. (Is somone running a Suzuki 400 "S" ?) One problem I see is that it's not fair too people that live in states where they can't "plate" a dirt bike. In Tn. where I now live I think you could plate a MX bike by duct taping a candle to the handel bars. In many states the bike has to manufactured as a street bike.

Would it be hard to police at tech? I will defer too Doug but I bet he already knows which bikes are and aren't true duel sports.

If we leave it as is then there are many more potential bikes out there to race so that would be good I gusess. But puts a "small" street bike at a big disadvantage. As an example a duel sport Yamaha WR250R weighs 276 lbs dry and makes about 27 hp. A Yamaha WR250F weighs 234 and has about 40 hp. and can easally be plated in Tn.

-Aren't the new 250s pretty equell to the zuk 400.
Yes but your now not just running against 400's your running with 799's.

-Trophies are cheap.
Sorry Anders. That was uncalled for. My Tn. trophy is very nice. I would like some more please.

-Philsophical what if classes.
Now your talking Anders. How about the 60 yrs old guy on a 1971 Husky400wr eight speed class. There was just one on Ebay. I'm bidding... -
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:28 AM   #9
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As others have said there really isn't a need for more classes yet. If you are buying a bike get what you think will be most competetive and are most comfortable riding or bring what you already have and ride, you might be suprised!

I do think the cureent class names should be changed back from Kings and Dukes to SP1 & 2. Kings & Dukes may sound catchy from a marketing perspective but Super Production is easy to guess or understand what that class is to the lay person. I've been asked many times what the K & D's are only after explaining to be followed up with why.

DOT legality does need to be adressed. The sport is starting to expand and while many events need bigger fields rules need to be established early. 49 state legal, sorry but to include California would ruin it for to many, should be the standard begining in the 09 season. Most major manufacturers produce a bike that could compete and the classes allow for modification so someone could build as stout a bike as they prefer to.

If I were to get a SCORE Trophy truck plated, which could easily be done in some states, I'm sure the car rally guys would have a fit. Other than bikes are a heck of a lot cheaper what's the difference?

BC61 screwed with this post 08-15-2008 at 09:48 AM
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC61
I've been asked many times what the K & D's are only after explaining to be followed up with why.
Yeah - that's a question that seems to come up frequently in conversation.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:09 PM   #11
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On class names, yes, that's something we're already planning on fixing for next year. How about:
  • Stock
  • Super Stock
  • Modified
  • Super Modified
Maybe "Mini Modified" for a under-300cc class? Not enough people to break that into a stock and modified, and we wouldn't want to exclude someone just because of some brake rotor upgrade, and the stock bikes fit into modified anyway. But I don't think "mini" sounds manly enough. (The other options, like "Lilliputian Modified", aren't any better, so it's kinda moot.)

Cheers
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:44 AM   #12
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new rallymoto class

i have spoken to some folks around charleston wv
that would be more interested in rallymoto if there was a small cc class
the idea of a 0-500 class might bring them in
for my self i would like to see a spec dr650 class but a spec dr350 or drz400 class would be cool and cheap

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Old 08-25-2008, 12:03 PM   #13
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdrrally
a spec dr350 or drz400 class would be cool and cheap
A spec DRZ class sounds like a good idea, but I don't think it would work for the following reason: does everyone really think all those DRZ owners are going to fix every broken piece with a factory replacement so that it matches the spec? My understanding is that isn't the DRZ culture. So we would expect a wide variety of DRZs showing up with a variety of fixes, repairs, upgrades.

We've already seen a well-ridden DRZ400 podium, so I'd be inclined to leave that bike with all the rest and make the new class even smaller. We wouldn't have a bunch of 250's showing up if they were going to be run against the 400's. Who can make a list of currently available for sale, dual sport legal, 4 stroke in
  • 0-250
  • 250-300
  • 300-350
  • 350-390 (current DRZ400 is 398)
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Old 08-25-2008, 04:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anders Green
A spec DRZ class sounds like a good idea, but I don't think it would work for the following reason: does everyone really think all those DRZ owners are going to fix every broken piece with a factory replacement so that it matches the spec? My understanding is that isn't the DRZ culture. So we would expect a wide variety of DRZs showing up with a variety of fixes, repairs, upgrades.

We've already seen a well-ridden DRZ400 podium, so I'd be inclined to leave that bike with all the rest and make the new class even smaller. We wouldn't have a bunch of 250's showing up if they were going to be run against the 400's. Who can make a list of currently available for sale, dual sport legal, 4 stroke in
  • 0-250
  • 250-300
  • 300-350
  • 350-390 (current DRZ400 is 398)
A TW200 class would be really fun! I would do it
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Old 08-25-2008, 04:55 PM   #15
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After the first year of RallyMoto, I started building and testing a 250 Kawasaki. The rules initially had a "Pedrosa" class. But when the new rules came out I realized it wouldn't be competitive so I dropped the whole idea. The only other bikes in the stable, a Goldwing or Triumph Scrambler, just wouldn't do. So I found myself out of money before I ever turned a wheel in competition.
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