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Old 05-21-2013, 08:12 AM   #4936
Pampero
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Despite my predisposition to replace my Scorpions with PR3s, I ended up mounting Angel GTs at the "insistence" of my dealer who suggested I would really like them and that they would wear as well. I was skeptical, (and I guess I still am in respect to mileage) but they do handle very nicely; crisp, neutral turn in, very compliant ride and a generally superior sense of control. If they wear as well as you guys report the Michelins do, I believe they will represent another worthy tire option. I will report back on that after I get a few thousand miles on them, but after about 1000, they still look brand new, as they should.

I got 4000 miles out of my Scorpions at which point the rear got holed and I didn't judge it worthwhile to do other than change them out. The front began to cup, the rear was squaring off and had maybe 1000 miles left. Up until that point, I thought their performance was OK but the Angel GTs are much better, less greasy feeling and more linear.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:17 AM   #4937
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Was taking you seriously till I read this:

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Originally Posted by Urban Toreador View Post
Now if the MTS had a paralever it would be the finest bike ever made.


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Old 05-21-2013, 10:27 AM   #4938
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Was taking you seriously till I read this:
He said Paralever, not Telelever. Meaning he wants a well working shaft drive but still conventional forks.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:33 AM   #4939
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
He said Paralever, not Telelever. Meaning he wants a well working shaft drive but still conventional forks.
I am aware of the difference. However was is the point in taking a fine handling and light(ish) sports-bike and endorse it with 10Kgs of unsprung mass in the back?
Shafts work well in heavy tourers, but in a Ducati? God forbidden!
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:17 AM   #4940
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I am aware of the difference. However was is the point in taking a fine handling and light(ish) sports-bike and endorse it with 10Kgs of unsprung mass in the back?
Shafts work well in heavy tourers, but in a Ducati? God forbidden!
Yeah, sure. According to specs from both manufacturers, the Ducati is only 14kg lighter overall (base models compared). Given that it already has a massive single sided swingarm, the weight difference for a shaft is certainly not 10kg unsprung mass.

But anyways. I rather have a bit more unsprung mass, than the shitty chain and chain adjusters ... because the Multi is actually a tourer.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:13 PM   #4941
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
Yeah, sure. According to specs from both manufacturers, the Ducati is only 14kg lighter overall (base models compared). Given that it already has a massive single sided swingarm, the weight difference for a shaft is certainly not 10kg unsprung mass.

But anyways. I rather have a bit more unsprung mass, than the shitty chain and chain adjusters ... because the Multi is actually a tourer.
You don't like the eccentric adjuster? It's been a while since I've had a chain driven bike, and mine is still new, not needing much attention and not munged up but I think Ducati's adjuster is brilliant compared to what I was used to. I understand they can get harder to deal with if they are allowed to collect grit and mung, but I have found it very pleasant not to have to deal with alignment while adjusting the chain, which on my bike has been pretty stable. No doubt, a shaft drive is easier to live with especially while touring, but I rode the (2012) GS and felt I could deal with the chain in exchange for the benefits the rest of the bike offered me.

Aside: I think Guzzi's set up for the last dozen or fifteen years is the dynamic equal of the BMW and works just as well as the Paralever in respect to the way it doesn't jack the rear end.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:23 PM   #4942
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You don't like the eccentric adjuster?
I didn't say that. I don't like chain adjusters in general, but given the choice of chain only and what adjuster to have, I'd take a single sided swingarm like the Ducati or the VFR750F I had over the Tiger 800 I have today.

Also, I don't have a Multi, therefore I can't really speak for the adjuster itself and I think I didn't.

Quote:
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It's been a while since I've had a chain driven bike, and mine is still new, not needing much attention and not munged up but I think Ducati's adjuster is brilliant compared to what I was used to.
The only thing I know about it is that I was on a trip with a Multi owner once and he wanted to adjust his chain and it was a real PITA to do so. I was busy with my own bike at the time (R1200GS, oil check, adding a bit as it was still burning a little), so I didn't really see what he was doing, but he was swearing and sweating and it took quite a while for him to be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pampero View Post
No doubt, a shaft drive is easier to live with especially while touring, but I rode the (2012) GS and felt I could deal with the chain in exchange for the benefits the rest of the bike offered me.
And I think that's what was actually asked: a bike like the Multi with the addition of a shaft drive to make it a more tour worthy bike for some. Sure, some will not like it, others will, for me it's one of the more important things I don't like about the Multi. It didn't keep me away from the Tiger 800, not sure what it'll do for the Multi when the time comes to replace the Tiger.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:54 PM   #4943
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
I didn't say that. I don't like chain adjusters in general, but given the choice of chain only and what adjuster to have, I'd take a single sided swingarm like the Ducati or the VFR750F I had over the Tiger 800 I have today.

Also, I don't have a Multi, therefore I can't really speak for the adjuster itself and I think I didn't.



The only thing I know about it is that I was on a trip with a Multi owner once and he wanted to adjust his chain and it was a real PITA to do so. I was busy with my own bike at the time (R1200GS, oil check, adding a bit as it was still burning a little), so I didn't really see what he was doing, but he was swearing and sweating and it took quite a while for him to be happy.



And I think that's what was actually asked: a bike like the Multi with the addition of a shaft drive to make it a more tour worthy bike for some. Sure, some will not like it, others will, for me it's one of the more important things I don't like about the Multi. It didn't keep me away from the Tiger 800, not sure what it'll do for the Multi when the time comes to replace the Tiger.
Shaft drive, cruise control...
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:58 PM   #4944
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Shaft drive, cruise control...
And about 50kg overweight, and feeling HUGE without providing the benefits of the size like for example the GS Adventure with the large tank does. Not for me.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:58 PM   #4945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
I didn't say that. I don't like chain adjusters in general, but given the choice of chain only and what adjuster to have, I'd take a single sided swingarm like the Ducati or the VFR750F I had over the Tiger 800 I have today.

Also, I don't have a Multi, therefore I can't really speak for the adjuster itself and I think I didn't.



The only thing I know about it is that I was on a trip with a Multi owner once and he wanted to adjust his chain and it was a real PITA to do so. I was busy with my own bike at the time (R1200GS, oil check, adding a bit as it was still burning a little), so I didn't really see what he was doing, but he was swearing and sweating and it took quite a while for him to be happy.



And I think that's what was actually asked: a bike like the Multi with the addition of a shaft drive to make it a more tour worthy bike for some. Sure, some will not like it, others will, for me it's one of the more important things I don't like about the Multi. It didn't keep me away from the Tiger 800, not sure what it'll do for the Multi when the time comes to replace the Tiger.
You say the Multi is a tourer, but I'd disagree. It's more of a superbike with a dirt bike riding position. It's infinitely more fun and compelling to ride than the GS and yet can be tamed and ridden like a GS. The power and torque hit in Sport or Touring mode is like that of a 500cc 2 stroke MX bike...nothing else like it that I've ridden or owned. Visceral.

To my way of thinking it's really a very unique and flexible platform.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:00 PM   #4946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
I didn't say that. I don't like chain adjusters in general, but given the choice of chain only and what adjuster to have, I'd take a single sided swingarm like the Ducati or the VFR750F I had over the Tiger 800 I have today.

Also, I don't have a Multi, therefore I can't really speak for the adjuster itself and I think I didn't.



The only thing I know about it is that I was on a trip with a Multi owner once and he wanted to adjust his chain and it was a real PITA to do so. I was busy with my own bike at the time (R1200GS, oil check, adding a bit as it was still burning a little), so I didn't really see what he was doing, but he was swearing and sweating and it took quite a while for him to be happy.



And I think that's what was actually asked: a bike like the Multi with the addition of a shaft drive to make it a more tour worthy bike for some. Sure, some will not like it, others will, for me it's one of the more important things I don't like about the Multi. It didn't keep me away from the Tiger 800, not sure what it'll do for the Multi when the time comes to replace the Tiger.
Trying to do any work on a bike is a pain while on the road. I don't know how often chains need to be adjusted but I would think typically it is something you could do at home before the trip and you'd be fine unless you are going cross country or around the world. I just got my multi, so lots to learn about chains as I haven't had a chain driven bike since the 80s.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:01 PM   #4947
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
And about 50kg overweight, and feeling HUGE without providing the benefits of the size like for example the GS Adventure with the large tank does. Not for me.
It does feel huge...both in the showroom and on the road. Not for me either.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:35 PM   #4948
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I don't know how often chains need to be adjusted but I would think typically it is something you could do at home before the trip and you'd be fine unless you are going cross country or around the world.
I had to adjust the chain twice since I got it new. Not much, but I have to check it often enough to be certain it's still okay and normally at some point in time, close to the end of its life, it will start to stretch. Modern chains are fairly robust and should last enough that it's not a major concern for most people.

The issue is that you never know when the chain will actually go into that "I'm going to fail soon" mode. Sure, you could preemptively replace it when you get to a point where you think it has been on for a while and that upcoming trip is long enough to give concerns. Like, I'm going on a 3.5k miles trip soon, I'm certain I'm totally fine with the chain that's on which has 6k miles. I'm not 100% certain with the chain that is on my wife's bike which has 10k miles now and part of that not from us, so we don't really know how well it was being kept up. Doesn't look too good. We are still just using it as it is.

My very personal opinion is just that I should not have to even think about crap like that. Chains for me are an anachronism from times when they couldn't build proper shaft drives light and advanced enough to work properly in a bike and for the race crowd that wouldn't want to give up that 5% hit it might take in efficiency. From my perspective (and I bet from most other people buying these bikes) I can only say screw that. Give me something that isn't messy (for maintenance, bike cleaning, tire changes, hassle on really long road trips, and so on) and works fine and I'm a happy camper.

I couldn't care less whether I have 140 or a 130 HP at the rear wheel. Or whatever small number my Tiger makes. It's enough for me and what I ask from this bike. The difference can be rarely ever felt. What you normally feel as super positive when tuning a bike properly is difference of available torque, either for acceleration or smoother handling, not max HP output.

But really, enough of that rant. The Multi is an awesome motorcycle, disliking chains is my personal preference, nothing that should/must make sense to others. Just one more thing: for me having a chain can be a reason to not buy a certain bike. I personally consider somebody telling me I'm wrong on that because it's not a big deal to maintain the chain an ignorant idiot who doesn't think about the fact that it's my personal preference to not like the chain, whether it's not a big deal for him or not doesn't count for me.

I can accept that other people deal with chains just fine or prefer them. I just don't have to share the opinion. I'm not saying "it IS a big deal", I'm saying "it is a big deal FOR ME". That's the difference.

And FOR ME, the Multi would be a better motorcycle with a shaft drive.
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Old 05-21-2013, 05:49 PM   #4949
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The issue is that you never know when the chain will actually go into that "I'm going to fail soon" mode. Sure, you could preemptively replace it when you get to a point where you think it has been on for a while and that upcoming trip is long enough to give concerns
.
I'm not saying that you should like chain driven motorcycles, but one can take measurements, and perform both a visual and physical check (stiffness) of the chain itself to determine its worth. If that's too much simply replace them every 8k-10k and have even less to worry about.
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Old 05-21-2013, 06:20 PM   #4950
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I have the altrider set-up. I would reconsider the sliders. They are HUGE and at first I thought they looked a bit ridiculous, but they work. Tested in a technical misadventure on sand in Big Bend. Agree on the barkbusters - easy bolt on and pretty seamless design - effective and barely noticeable.


pictures?!? of the sliders not necessarily your technical misadventure but those can be fun as well
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