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Old 09-28-2008, 12:38 PM   #31
Dieselboy OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin650GS
Hey, DB, any luck?

-Rob
Yes and no.

I wired the horn to the battery. It works.

I continue to try to engineer the circuit throught the AP1. Attempts so far have failed:

1. I rewired the signal lines to 86 posts on relays and grounds to the 85 post on the relays. They were backwards, but appear to have no affect on any operation.
2. I inserted two new relays. No change in the Stebel. It still shuts down the CANBUS.
3. I put a diode (N4003) in line between the CANBUS and the AP1 relay. No change in the Stebel. It still shuts down the relay.

My next action is to get some hardcore diagnostics on the wires. I have a friend with an oscilliscope. I want to see where the spike is traveling.

Oddly, there appears to be constant current coming off of the CANBUS aux plugs. I'm not sure how that works. With the ignition off, I hear the relays click when I plug and unplug the 86 signal wires.

So there is a trickle of power but not enough to turn on the AP1?
When I turn on the ignition, the zumo lights up. When the ingnition goes off, there is as delay, but then the zumo shuts down. This is as expected, but the signal wires still have a small current.

Anyone out there able to explain that one?

I will keep at it.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:02 PM   #32
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Have you tried the folks at Stebel or Aerostich? This can't be the first Stebel install on a 800/650...
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Old 09-28-2008, 04:03 PM   #33
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So... interesting multi-meter readings:

ENGINE OFF. IGNITION OFF.

AP1 terminals read .2 volts.

ENGINE OFF. IGNITION ON.

AP1 termials read 12.30 volts.

When I plug the Stebel to the AP1 and engage the horn button, the readings at the AP1 positive terminal drop to 10.xx volts.

ENGINE ON.

AP1 termials read 13.85 volts.

When I plug the Stebel to the AP1 and engage the horn button, the readings at the positive terminal remain the same.

Could there be a need for a capacitor instead of a diode? This could explain why the diode had no effect on the circuit. If it's not a spike, but rather a drop, perhaps that is what is shutting down the CANBUS. Of course this doesn't make sense when the engine is on.

EDIT

Again, I don't know if this is normal. I never had occasion to do this type of measurement before.

Does anyone have corroborating data?
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Old 09-28-2008, 05:31 PM   #34
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Don't all capacitors "fire" like those in a strobe light? Wouldn't that only give you a momentary honk of the horn? Please forgive my dumb questions, I'm trying to learn!
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin650GS
Don't all capacitors "fire" like those in a strobe light? Wouldn't that only give you a momentary honk of the horn? Please forgive my dumb questions, I'm trying to learn!
Sorry, blind leading blind here. I'm an imperical physist/electrician...and as I've never played with capacitors, I can't answer that one.
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:58 PM   #36
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Sorrry .. but I've no idea what an 'AP1' is ...


But on a KISS principle.
On the relay for the sebel ...
85 and 86 [I assume these are the coil connection of the relay] can be connected directly across the standard horn .. this will mean any inductive effects of the relay will be swamped by the standard horn!

87 [I assume this is one of the high current connectors of the relay] can be taken directly from the battery .. through a fuse for safety.

No CANBUSS connection is required with this wiring as the standard horn connection will take care of ignition key requirements etc.

[Suggest you test the assumed connections - connect terminals 85 and 86 directly to the battery, the other teminals unconnected to anything. The realy should click as the connection is made and unmade .. if not then something is wrong. ]

-------------------------------------------------
Driving a 20 Amp load (sebel horn) thought a capacitor .. would require an extreamly large capacitor!!!!! It is not going to happen.

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Old 09-28-2008, 07:25 PM   #37
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Haven't meet Mrs. CANBus yet but I'm guessing the back EMF from the relay coil is screwing up the CANBus when the relay is de-activated (you let the horn switch go...)

Back EMF is the reverse current produced by the relay coil when you turn it off. You DO need a Diode to kill the back EMF, but the diode has to be reverse connected across the relay coil terminals, so it appears as a short circuit to any reverse voltage that appaears at the relay terminals.

Wire this correctly, and the problem should be gone. Get it wrong, and the diode goes west when you press the horn switch , and maybe the CANBus too!
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Old 09-28-2008, 08:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpoll
Get it wrong, and the diode goes west when you press the horn switch , and maybe the CANBus too!
Oh, I thought you were going to tell me something expensive might get fucked up...
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:44 PM   #39
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Looking at the coloured wiring diagram, was the original connection the the OEM horn via the BLUE wire, i.e. directly from the CANBus (labelled "85" on your diagrams...)?

If so, then you got problems, as the OEM horn probably has a CANBus decoder in it, for use on the CANBus system. The aftermarket relay won't have this "feature" so you cannot decode and use the signals from the CANBus in this way. :-(

Unless I have my own internal "WPOLLBus" in a muddle, in which case ignore me...

Do folk here understand how CANBus works? It's NOTHING like an regular electrical system, and ALL the rules change.... The CANBus "bus" is actually a computer data bus, with all the devices on the bus receiving data constantly but only responding to data addressed to that device. Kinda like everyone on your street getting copies of everyone elses mail, but you are only allowed to open stuff addressed to you; the rest you just ignore. Makes for simpler wiring, but more complicated diagnostics (in the field anyway...!). 12v is not usually switched to a device on a CANBus system; it's feed to the device all the time, and only used by the device when the databus tells the device to use it.

Or something like that...

wpoll screwed with this post 09-28-2008 at 11:19 PM
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:11 AM   #40
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When y'all get it all figured out, will someone please post a really cool installation wiring diagram for us Canbus n00bs?
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:30 AM   #41
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So an interesting Voltmeter reading would be to see what happens AT the stock horn, bike running/switch depressed.



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Old 09-29-2008, 04:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpoll
Looking at the coloured wiring diagram, was the original connection the the OEM horn via the BLUE wire, i.e. directly from the CANBus (labelled "85" on your diagrams...)?
Oh errrrr .. If the horn has a built in canbus then all bets are off - you will not be able to use a relay to sense wihen the OEM horn is activated .. well not easlily ...

How many original wires go to/from the horn? (be aware that some wires are 'twined' inside one bit of plastic - two wires but only one snake) .. if more than two then you have a canbuss connection to the horn ... and you'll need to either have a canbuss enabled system to determin when the horn is pressed, or get inside the OEM horn to find the power connections to the actual horn itself .. you may not have the skills to do this yourself...

If no canbuss connection to the OEM horn then wiring the relay coil to the horn directly will overcome back emf, key off reqirements .. and is the easiest thing to do.

------------------------------------------
Voltmeter readings on a canbuss will usually just confuse the operator .. full of 1s and 0s those busses!
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Old 09-29-2008, 05:46 PM   #43
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+1 on what Frank said....

As Frank said, the CANBus wiring is a twisted pair (usually), so any CANBus device will have the CANBus wires, along with postive 12volts and (maybe) a ground wire. This should make it easy to determine if a particular device on your bike is one you can muck about with. Or not.

You CAN measure CANBus with a multi-meter, but the readings are pretty useless - the apparent voltage will rise and fall depending on the duty-cycle of the data on the bus. Even with an ocsilloscope, all you are going to see is a pulse train, which won't tell you much without the data frame information.

Over on F650.com someone mentioned that BMW make and sell a CANBus accessory load device, that allows owners of CANBus bikes to add electrical "farkles" to their bikes, without a degree in electronic engineering. :-) I can't find any reference to it though.

Theres a good article on CANBus over at the BMWRA site.

http://www.bmwra.org/otl/canbus/

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Old 09-29-2008, 06:07 PM   #44
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What do you think?

http://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade...view/2868/691/

http://www.twistedthrottle.com/trade/productview/2186

Is this the answer?

-Rob
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Old 09-29-2008, 06:17 PM   #45
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Nope, not really, all that does is provide a way of detecting (and providing) clean power when the ignition is on. It isn't going to decode the horn data.. :-(

Useful item though....
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