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Old 04-06-2013, 03:30 AM   #14506
mas335
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Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Piedmont region NC
Oddometer: 1,831
I have seen a few Transalps with noticeable output shaft spline wear and it has been discussed here before as to just what causes it. Generally we have assumed it is caused by chains being too tight and not having proper chain slack. See page 3-11 in the Honda service manual, 1 3/8" to 1 3/4".

Having removed a couple of aftermarket sprockets from TA's and finding spline wear I looked closely at the sprockets themselves. I did a quick and simple "hardness" test with a medium course file and tried to file the edge of the sprockets of a JT, Sunstar and a oem sprocket. All seemed as hard as each other with the file having no effect at all. This is no subsitute for a Rockwell hardness test but it will have to do. As a general note I found the JT and Sunstar sprockets to be about 1mm narrower than the Honda sprocket.

In comparision a motorcycle chain is much softer, you can easily mark it with a file and can cut through one with a hack saw fairly easy.

The transmisison output shaft is also hardened, I had to cut through a few to separate the engine cases and it took quit a while. ( ray, I think the remaining shaft might be in one of those boxes I sent you).

I visually compared the sprocket splines and I see a difference that might add to the wear of these shaft splines. If I were a computer wizard I would drawn a image to help explain this but think of a output shaft spline as a cog, I am going to call the top edge of the cog tooth as the "crown".

On the aftermarket sprockets the spline "crown" appears slightly thinner or narrower than the original Honda sprocket splines. This tells me that the spline taper is different than that of a Honda sprocket. If the spline teeth were longer then you would also create a narrower "crown" but the spline "teeth" are limited in length or depth in order for them to telescope over the output shaft splines. The spline "teeth" with the same depth but a narrow crown would have to have a different pitch or angle and that would not be ideal. The two surfaces would not mate up parallel, there would be higher contact points on the splines and that could certtainly cause premature wear.

I think this along with excessive chain tension may be the cause of the output shaft spline wear problems. Maybe I'm just over reaching for a explaination to the spline wear but for my two cents I think sticking with a OEM sprocket is the safer option, cost ain't everything.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:46 AM   #14507
showkey
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+2 on the above^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:01 AM   #14508
2bold2getold
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CS sprockets

They don't cost that much. 16T... $32.73 http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_sectio...90&fveh=132581

15T... $28.87 http://www.hdlparts.com/fiche_sectio...90&fveh=132557
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:31 PM   #14509
Clockwatcher
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My 2 cents.........

FYI I found this article..............dont remember where....here most likely...


http://bloggis.se/Tramsvalp/85103The


might help prolong countershaft change......a little different prospective.
Might be worth a try to help eliminate shaft wear......
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:42 PM   #14510
GSPD750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mas335 View Post
I have seen a few Transalps with noticeable output shaft spline wear and it has been discussed here before as to just what causes it. Generally we have assumed it is caused by chains being too tight and not having proper chain slack. See page 3-11 in the Honda service manual, 1 3/8" to 1 3/4".

Having removed a couple of aftermarket sprockets from TA's and finding spline wear I looked closely at the sprockets themselves. I did a quick and simple "hardness" test with a medium course file and tried to file the edge of the sprockets of a JT, Sunstar and a oem sprocket. All seemed as hard as each other with the file having no effect at all. This is no subsitute for a Rockwell hardness test but it will have to do. As a general note I found the JT and Sunstar sprockets to be about 1mm narrower than the Honda sprocket.

In comparision a motorcycle chain is much softer, you can easily mark it with a file and can cut through one with a hack saw fairly easy.

The transmisison output shaft is also hardened, I had to cut through a few to separate the engine cases and it took quit a while. ( ray, I think the remaining shaft might be in one of those boxes I sent you).

I visually compared the sprocket splines and I see a difference that might add to the wear of these shaft splines. If I were a computer wizard I would drawn a image to help explain this but think of a output shaft spline as a cog, I am going to call the top edge of the cog tooth as the "crown".

On the aftermarket sprockets the spline "crown" appears slightly thinner or narrower than the original Honda sprocket splines. This tells me that the spline taper is different than that of a Honda sprocket. If the spline teeth were longer then you would also create a narrower "crown" but the spline "teeth" are limited in length or depth in order for them to telescope over the output shaft splines. The spline "teeth" with the same depth but a narrow crown would have to have a different pitch or angle and that would not be ideal. The two surfaces would not mate up parallel, there would be higher contact points on the splines and that could certtainly cause premature wear.

I think this along with excessive chain tension may be the cause of the output shaft spline wear problems. Maybe I'm just over reaching for a explaination to the spline wear but for my two cents I think sticking with a OEM sprocket is the safer option, cost ain't everything.
I agree....common sense will tell you that the sprocket that has the most surface area to cover the countershaft splines is obviously going to cause less wear.
I will trust a Honda engineer over a JT, Renthal or Moose Racing engineer anyday but again I'm only speaking for the front countershaft sprocket. What goes in the rear position is a personal choice...but for me it's Honda in the front.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:59 PM   #14511
GSPD750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwatcher View Post
FYI I found this article..............dont remember where....here most likely...


http://bloggis.se/Tramsvalp/85103The


might help prolong countershaft change......a little different prospective.
Might be worth a try to help eliminate shaft wear......
I just read that whole link and it's all very interesting...but I'm not convinced that high strength Permatex or Loctite with a filling capability is the answer. Seems like a lot of work to in order to get it on and off too.

Ironically I just had my front sprocket off today on my new to me '96 TA. It was an inspection of the splines only as the chain front/rear sprockets still have a little bit of life in them yet. What I did find was evidence of red powdery dust coming from the front spline and sprocket area. Their was no appreciable wear on the splines but it was definately a tell tale sign that it had potential.

My 2 cents for a preventative measure is to clean both surfaces thoroughly and apply a dab of grease such as a lithium. Their is a huge thread over at thumpertalk.com on the xr650 which seems to have the same issue with worn splines. Alot of them seem to agree on the dab of grease solution...and of course the sprocket choice debate.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:30 AM   #14512
ravelv
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These are aftermarkets:

http://www.motorbike-shop.de/index.php?a=2892&lang=eng

Actually I wrote about them some time ago here, BTW. (But senior members always can ask again. )

In average fuel consumption dropped by ~0.8l/100km, what is quite good just for swapping CDI's, no other changes where done, even carb resync.

There is some cheaper alternative (~100EUR less against 260EUR for two these) with one CDI and some wire adapters from .ch, but I preferred plug and "play" option. :)
One fellow local rider used that Chech made solution, but he was uncertain about any changes in fuel consumption...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder Dan View Post
Hello Ravelv,

Could you tell me / us a little more about the CDI update? Are they a Honda part number? Or aftermarket items?


Cheers,

Dan.

ravelv screwed with this post 04-07-2013 at 04:43 AM
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:34 AM   #14513
ravelv
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Besides all that, I prefer stock stock one because of rubber dumper on side- it really dumpens chain and noise is really much less from chain. I once put JT sprocket and noise was really annoying me (I have stock exaust :) ) so much that I bought quickly stock sprocket... Price difference is too small to save here also counting potencial shaft problems...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSPD750 View Post
I agree....common sense will tell you that the sprocket that has the most surface area to cover the countershaft splines is obviously going to cause less wear.
I will trust a Honda engineer over a JT, Renthal or Moose Racing engineer anyday but again I'm only speaking for the front countershaft sprocket. What goes in the rear position is a personal choice...but for me it's Honda in the front.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:27 AM   #14514
showkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravelv View Post
Besides all that, I prefer stock stock one because of rubber dumper on side- it really dumpens chain and noise is really much less from chain..

+ 2 on the above ^^^^^^^^^^^^. Plus rubber damper may do more than just dampen the chain noise
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:29 AM   #14515
Ladder106
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Quote:
rubber damper may do more than just dampen the chain noise
I never thought of that....you may be onto something here
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:35 AM   #14516
mgorman
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The dampers in the CS sprocket help save your clutch basket ears from being beaten to death then causing slippage
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:34 PM   #14517
mas335
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how?
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:02 PM   #14518
Thunder Dan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ravelv View Post
These are aftermarkets:

http://www.motorbike-shop.de/index.php?a=2892&lang=eng

Actually I wrote about them some time ago here, BTW. (But senior members always can ask again. )

In average fuel consumption dropped by ~0.8l/100km, what is quite good just for swapping CDI's, no other changes where done, even carb resync.

There is some cheaper alternative (~100EUR less against 260EUR for two these) with one CDI and some wire adapters from .ch, but I preferred plug and "play" option. :)
One fellow local rider used that Chech made solution, but he was uncertain about any changes in fuel consumption...
G'day Ravelv,

Sorry about that, I didn't think to go back and check. There was nearly a 12 month period I missed when my twin boys were babies. Thanks for the link, it was a good read. It was interesting about how the spark weakens was the RPM increases on the standard CDI's. I thought the whole point to CDI's was to maintain consistent spark!

I work with a couple of High Voltage electricians who have previously explained (to the best of my limited electrical comprehension..) the benefits of IGBT's, and how quickly they can work (switch on / off).

Interesting to note the 'Advanced Curve' is typically only beneficial with 95 + octane fuel??

Have you tried switching between the curves?


Cheers,

Dan.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:32 PM   #14519
TRBaron
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I'm using those CDIs [on my '87] too and I only run 98 octane [unless I need fuel and there is none of the good stuff].
As I understand it higher octane fuel can be compressed more before it detonates, so you can change the ignition timing for more compression before detonation if you run higher octane fuel.
So if you run standard 91 then you don't really want that advanced timing.

I don't know what the economy on my bike was because I've only used it since I did a bunch of work [including new CDIs] to get it roadworthy after 20 years of storage, but now it runs 4.5-5l per 100km at 4500rpm [90kph] or less and 5-6l on highwqay/freeway [120kph or over 5000rpm].

It also eats too much oil at freeway speeds IMO for an engine with only 30k~ km on it.
I used 2L of oil on a 4000km trip a couple of weeks ago. seems like too much to me anyway.


btw those consumption numbers are for a fully loaded trip with me [fat barstard] and all my camping gear onboard plus a jerrycan of fuel extra strapped on.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:27 PM   #14520
happyclam
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DOT approved?

My latest mod..
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