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Old 11-26-2009, 09:38 AM   #76
sturgeon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey_Boy
So, the canister acts like an air filter for the fuel tank, it stops "bad" airborne things from entering the fuel tank as fuel is drawn down?

Yep, makes sense to remove it for an off-road bike.
I think it's the other way around. The canister collects evaporated fuel from the tank and prevents it from entering the atmosphere. In addition to the charcoal filter, there's a regeneration valve, which I assume punts the collected gas vapour back into the system to be burned with the fuel-air mix.

Of course, I'm Canadian and don't have one of those things to remove, so what do I know
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Old 11-26-2009, 09:50 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxr140
The fuel valve is #5. It's a pendulum that close off the vent in the event of a tipover. The valve in the hose is only for fumes/air.
Exactly. We were talking about different things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgeon
I think it's the other way around. The canister collects evaporated fuel from the tank and prevents it from entering the atmosphere. In addition to the charcoal filter, there's a regeneration valve, which I assume punts the collected gas vapour back into the system to be burned with the fuel-air mix.
That's what I would have thought. Except that air will not go from the tank to the charcoal canister. Go figure. It's a one-way valve and only allows air into the tank. So I have no idea where fuel vapors which evaporate in the tank go...
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:13 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS
Exactly. We were talking about different things...
10-4. Back when you said the check valve in the hose was there to "stop fuel from coming out of the tank", I assumed that's what you actually meant.
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Old 11-26-2009, 10:31 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YetiGS
Exactly. We were talking about different things.


That's what I would have thought. Except that air will not go from the tank to the charcoal canister. Go figure. It's a one-way valve and only allows air into the tank. So I have no idea where fuel vapors which evaporate in the tank go...
If that's the case, it seems that BMW has found a way to circumvent emissions laws. Have you looked at the fuel tank safety valve? Where does that go to?
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Old 11-26-2009, 01:42 PM   #80
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgeon
I think it's the other way around. The canister collects evaporated fuel from the tank and prevents it from entering the atmosphere. In addition to the charcoal filter, there's a regeneration valve, which I assume punts the collected gas vapour back into the system to be burned with the fuel-air mix.

Of course, I'm Canadian and don't have one of those things to remove, so what do I know
You are correct.... kind of. It doesn't punt the vapor back into the fuel tank. The carbs suck up the stored vented vapor from the fuel tank. The one-way check valve is positioned to allow vapor to pass out from the tank to the canister. The charcoal in the canister then holds the fuel vapors while the engine is not in use. When the engine is then running again, the small suction from the carbs pull the stored vapors from canister and burns them in the engine along with everything else.

I can't stress it enough: the fuel tank does not suck air in. It is vented. It lets vapor out to the canister in order to make the system work. This is just the way it is.

Here is a flow chart of how the vapor moves through the system (and how all evaporative control systems work):

tank----->canister----->carbs--->combustion chamber----->end of story.

The system is one way only.



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The Griz screwed with this post 11-26-2009 at 01:59 PM
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:23 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
I can't stress it enough: the fuel tank does not suck air in. It is vented. It lets vapor out to the canister in order to make the system work. This is just the way it is.

The system is one way only.
You may want to re-think that statement.

The vent [when functioning properly] DOES allow "air" into the tank. Otherwise, the displaced volume of spent fuel will create a pressure delta in the tank.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:30 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
The system is one way only.
Possibly the charcoal canister system may be one way, but in your diagram I only see a two way valve and no one way valves. I haven't studied it much but I agree with bxr that there is a valve to the fuel to allow the pressure to equalize when you suck gas. If this were not the case your fuel pump would be overworked and you would not be able to suck gas against the vacuum in your tank. This system may be separate from the charcoal canister.

All I really know is that keeping the charcoal canister may directly impact me more in the short run than taking it off will impact our future generations . Therefor it is gone as soon as BMW gets me my new tank!
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:32 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxr140
You may want to re-think that statement.

The vent [when functioning properly] DOES allow "air" into the tank. Otherwise, the displaced volume of spent fuel will create a pressure delta in the tank.
Nah, it's only one way man. Look at the diagrams. The system only pulls in extra or overflow vapor. Meaning the check valve only open towards the canister when there's a need for extra vapor to exit the tank. The vacuum within the system is low enough to not constantly be pulling on the tank unless there's extra vapor to be pulled.

It's one way. No sense arguing, it's just the way it is. And it's not just me making it up bxr. It's how the systems are designed. No deep thinking necessary bxr!
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The Griz screwed with this post 11-26-2009 at 02:38 PM
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:34 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
This system may be separate from the charcoal canister

It is! It's completely separate from the fuel delivery system, which is why the system is sometimes called a secondary system.
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:37 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Griz
It is! It's completely separate from the fuel delivery system, which is why the system is sometimes called a secondary system.
Therefor to close the loop....

There is a one way valve to allow fresh air into the tank to facilitate fuel delivery to the engine.

And...

There is a one way valve to the charcoal canister which collects vapors generated in the fuel tank and "cleans them".
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:40 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderTheX
Therefor to close the loop....

There is a one way valve to allow fresh air into the tank to facilitate fuel delivery to the engine.
Correct, and this is part of the fuel delivery system.


Quote:
There is a one way valve to the charcoal canister which collects vapors generated in the fuel tank and "cleans them".
Correct, and this is part of the evaporative emission control system. Only the charcoal canister doesn't "clean" the vapors, it only stores them while the engine's not running so they don't get evaporated into the environment. Then once the engine is turned on again, it sucks the vapors from the canister into the engine's combustion chamber to be burned along with the fuel/air mixture.
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The Griz screwed with this post 11-26-2009 at 02:49 PM
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Old 11-26-2009, 02:58 PM   #87
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You crack me up, Griz!

As noted, and as you just agreed, your original statement was incorrect. That's just the way it is.
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:15 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxr140
You crack me up, Griz!

As noted, and as you just agreed, your original statement was incorrect. That's just the way it is.
You'll have to explain that to me smarty-pants. I haven't changed my story one bit. The one way valve to allow fresh air into the tank to facilitate fuel delivery to the engine is a separate part of the tank and is part of the fuel delivery system. It is not part of the evaporative control system. We're talking about the evaporative control system. Not the Fuel delivery system. You may need to read correctly! And btw, I'm trying to help people understand the system, because I understand it. You seem to just want to fuck with people. Mind stopping that? Thanks!
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:22 PM   #89
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What a lame waste of time and engineering!

In the U.S., motorcycle emissions make up such a small total of the overall pollution problem that ANY type of pollution control devices on motorcycles are completely irrelevant and just add to their cost and complexity!

Any "scientific" evidence that purports to measure MC emissions in a designated geographic area is a fraud, the highest estimated MC emissions are smaller than the lowest margin of error/accuracy repetition of the monitoring systems.

Junk science being used to extort from and control a small segment of society!
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Old 11-26-2009, 03:29 PM   #90
The Griz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemieuxmc
What a lame waste of time and engineering!

In the U.S., motorcycle emissions make up such a small total of the overall pollution problem that ANY type of pollution control devices on motorcycles are completely irrelevant and just add to their cost and complexity!

Any "scientific" evidence that purports to measure MC emissions in a designated geographic area is a fraud, the highest estimated MC emissions are smaller than the lowest margin of error/accuracy repetition of the monitoring systems.

Junk science being used to extort from and control a small segment of society!
That's an uneducated opinion there, man. Gasoline evaporation from the tank, when in the atmosphere, reacts in sunlight to produce photochemical smog. This smog makes up 20% of all carbon emissions. If you think the making of a system to control that is a lame waste of time and engineering, then I wouldn't want to know what your idea of good engineering is!
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