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Old 10-27-2009, 08:02 PM   #61
Countdown
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRally
Why is it okay for Big Dog to share his CDT tracks but not okay to discuss the same topic for the TAT?
Who is Sam that his for profit business is elevated above the free exchange of information? Sam offers a service. If you want it, pay for it. Why are gps tracks off limits for the TAT?
The big difference is the CDR was first put into the public domain by some bicycle riders. They still have GPS tracks posted on the Internet. I think an organization developed it for the public to use.

The same is true with the PCQ and thousands of miles of tracks I put into public domain on GPSXchange.com

Sam does not offer a service, he sells a product. Sam spent a lot of time and money to develop his product just like I did developing Mex2Can. The reason we made an investment was to return a profit and we try to protect our investment. Of course the proper way would be to have each customer sign a non-disclosure agreement but we just depond the integrity of our customers.
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:16 PM   #62
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So did the oregon part get fixed this year? I bought TN-OK so far.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:26 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobzilla
OOOOHHHH
I think you just farted in church
Bob,
It's a serious question. If Sam owns this sight or somehow has a financial interest I can understand why the punters at this site would respect his business. I don't know who Sam is, hence the question of who Sam is.

I caught your wink but I'm curious to know as well. I'm not trying to prove a point or start a flame war. If the tracks are available and I can plug them into Mapsource to make my own trip from LA up the TAT I would love to do that. If they are not available I will buy the maps and work it out. It doesn't have to suck to be an adventure.
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:44 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
The big difference is the CDR was first put into the public domain by some bicycle riders. They still have GPS tracks posted on the Internet. I think an organization developed it for the public to use.

The same is true with the PCQ and thousands of miles of tracks I put into public domain on GPSXchange.com

Sam does not offer a service, he sells a product. Sam spent a lot of time and money to develop his product just like I did developing Mex2Can. The reason we made an investment was to return a profit and we try to protect our investment. Of course the proper way would be to have each customer sign a non-disclosure agreement but we just depond the integrity of our customers.
Countdown,
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate all of the work you put into different rides. I have looked at a lot of your stuff on gpsxchange.
I have the tracks for the Adventure Cycling TAT. Free on their website. Same with the CDT tracks, which I used in addition to Big Bogs when I rode the CDT. (Mainly because I didn't want to skip Fleecer Ridge! Although, I used the map to navi this part and not the tracks) The Adventure Cycling folks are a business who make maps to ride the CDT and the TAT as well as numerous other rides. They have always been good to us with motors between our knees and they provide tracks for us. I understand that you as a member here run a business selling a product. This community protects your product and will not let tracks that follow the TAT be distributed on the board. Does your business own the rights to the TAT? Did you guys make it or did you follow the Adventure Cycling TAT and tweak it for bikes? You don't have to answer me if you don't want. I just sincerely don't understand why the tracks are protected. I would have never done the CDT ride without the accompanying maps. The maps from Adventure Cycling are fantastic and cheap. I downloaded free tracks, bought the maps looked the route over made some tweaks and away we go. Why does every single person who wants to ride the TAT have to recreate it in Mapsource?
I plan to ride the TAT next year. I will buy your maps and compare the route to the Adventure Cycling route and decide which one to take. If I make my own route using a hybrid of the two am I not free then to distribute my tracks as my intellectual property. Serious question, not being a smart alec. I don't know what the established agreement is here.

Okay, I just opened the Adventure Cycling TAT and it goes way North after CO. Doesn't look similar at all.

VTRally screwed with this post 10-28-2009 at 09:57 AM
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:42 PM   #65
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:00 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRally
Countdown, Thanks for the reply. I understand that you as a member here run a business selling a product. This community protects your product and will not let tracks that follow the TAT be distributed on the board. Does your business own the rights to the TAT?

Did you guys make it or did you follow the Adventure Cycling TAT and tweak it for bikes? You don't have to answer me if you don't want. I just sincerely don't understand why the tracks are protected.

Why does every single person who wants to ride the TAT have to recreate it in Mapsource? Serious question, not being a smart alec.
1) I think you have me confused with Sam who sells the TAT. Go to his site http://www.transamtrail.com/ and read about him. I do not sell a product, I only promote actual rides like http://mex2can.com/ or http://www.district37ama.org/dualsport/ridingevents.php.

2) I think you found the answer, they are different. I didn't even know the bicycles did an east-west.

3) I can't answer for Sam reason why he doesn't. I would provide tracks by e-mail after a person buys the roll charts.

However I would have them sign a non-disclosure agareement and the agreement would also stipulate that the customer will not have a tag-along who did not pay. I wonder how many people buy one set of maps from Sam and take a friend or friends? How much profit do you think he makes a year? It took us 4-5 years to develop Mex2Can and we usually have to go out each year to make changes 1-2 weeks, up to 2,000 miles in truck.

I tried selling roll charts (80's) before D37 formed a Dual Sport organization and we started putting on organized rides. Could not sell enough to pay for developing them. Now I make enough from my rides to cover all the scouting to put GPS tracks on GPSXchange.com for rides that are not commercially viable. I am working on a CDR that actually follows the divide as close as possible but will probably not make it public until I retire from putting on rides.
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Countdown screwed with this post 10-28-2009 at 08:06 PM
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:13 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobzilla
OOOOHHHH
I think you just farted in church
The old lady leaned over and told her church companion that she had just let a giant silent one and didn't know what she should do. Her companion whispered back, first thing you should do is replace the battery in your hearing aid!
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Old 10-28-2009, 08:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
The old lady leaned over and told her church companion that she had just let a giant silent one and didn't know what she should do. Her companion whispered back, first thing you should do is replace the battery in your hearing aid!
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:08 PM   #69
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Quote:
I tried selling roll charts (80's) before D37 formed a Dual Sport organization and we started putting on organized rides. Could not sell enough to pay for developing them. Now I make enough from my rides to cover all the scouting to put GPS tracks on GPSXchange.com for rides that are not commercially viable. I am working on a CDR that actually follows the divide as close as possible but will probably not make it public until I retire from putting on rides.
There is no money in making tracks, rides, or whatever. The time spent putting it all together before you even get to ride it is worth more than anyone will ever recover by charging for it. If you're (in general "you" not specifically "you") not doing it for the fun, comraderie, or benefit of a club, then you're going to be disappointed. I can't imagine that value of the time spent trying to keep the TAT under wraps is worth the cost of admission, once the cost of the maps, rollcharts, and whatever else comes in the package are included.

So, here's a new spin on the whole "who owns it?" debate;

If I put two locations into Google Maps, get directions from it and ride it, who owns the rights to that route? Me or Google? I followed Google's directions and used their maps...

Personally, I don't understand the "I'm not going to tell you where I rode" mindset. I ride for fun and enjoy the community of riders wherever I may be. If someone wants to know where I've been or even follow my route, more power to 'em. Trying to finance something I do for fun on the backs of my fellow motorcyclists seems...um...cheap.
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Old 11-02-2009, 01:49 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boney
I don't understand the "I'm not going to tell you where I rode" mindset.
That's not what the thread is about. Its one thing to record your track while play riding, then upload that track for others to see. It’s another to put a huge amount of maybe not so fun research, travel expenses, time, and more into something which from the outset was intended to be a for fee product. To me this thread is about the ton of work put into creating the unique adventure, and the materials that are sold to enable others to enjoy it. Just because it may not be a highly profitable business doesn't mean the information is worth zero. And just like everything else, if the price is more than you think the product is worth, don't buy it! Plenty of people think it's worth the asking price, and gladly pay it. It seems to me the ones who are "cheap" are those who want valuable stuff for free.

I know someone who charges $75 to $100 for a one day roll chart for a typical 200 to 300 mile ride. Many of the same people who pay that keep coming back for more. Why is it wrong to charge for something people are happy to pay for? Why it is ok for someone to convert those roll charts into GPS tracks then give them away for free? Don't be selfish. Pay what's being asked, or GO DO SOME OTHER RIDE!
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:36 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernTraveler
I'm running the TAT again as I write... 8/26/09... and will update with all known closures, landslides, etc. I will be verifying that the problem still exists and riding the reroutes to make sure you can get through.

A big heads up though - I talked with some locals and they said that the Forest Service has recently announced plans to close THOUSANDS of forest roads THIS YEAR in Oregon. They think these will primarily be 'stub' roads, but the bottom line is the FS doesn't have the money, time, or will to keep all the roads open. The FS plans to publish - on the web - road closures but not mark them on the ground either with signs or berms. But they will be happy to issue you a ticket if you are caught riding a 'closed' road. Can you say 'revenue enhancement'? Sheesh! So it's going to get worse!

So on to the updates....

Here are some known problems on the TAT in Oregon, along with possible reroutes. I'll give you the mileage where the problem is, and then a possible reroute to where you hook back up.

If you don't have Sam's route guide for the Oregon section of TAT it won't do you any good as I'm not telling you WHERE you are!
1/7/10 Information removed at the request of NorthernTraveler 1/7/10

Thanks for putting this info together. I just got done putting the western routes into my gps software from Sam's charts and maps, and I cleaned up the trouble spots in Oregon per your advice.
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LongCliff screwed with this post 01-07-2010 at 05:58 AM
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:20 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogWild

I know someone who charges $75 to $100 for a one day roll chart for a typical 200 to 300 mile ride. Many of the same people who pay that keep coming back for more. Why is it wrong to charge for something people are happy to pay for? Why it is ok for someone to convert those roll charts into GPS tracks then give them away for free? Don't be selfish. Pay what's being asked, or GO DO SOME OTHER RIDE!
NO NEED TO GET EXCITED! I said "I don't understand [it]". I know that there's people out there who are happy to fork over a load money for a set of driving directions. I'm not, and I don't get it. There's nothing horribly unique about the TAT other than the secrecy that surrounds the route- one that anyone could put together should they so desire.

If someone wants to buy a set of maps or a roll chart and go ride, that's their deal. I just find the whole specter of including a "non-disclosure" clause and a request to keep it secret (except for the billions of ride-reports that pretty much detail the route) silly. To each their own, though.

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Old 11-06-2009, 06:29 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boney
NO NEED TO GET EXCITED! I said "I don't understand [it]". I know that there's people out there who are happy to fork over a load money for a set of driving directions. I'm not, and I don't get it. There's nothing horribly unique about the TAT other than the secrecy that surrounds the route- one that anyone could put together should they so desire.

If someone wants to buy a set of maps or a roll chart and go ride, that's their deal. I just find the whole specter of including a "non-disclosure" clause and a request to keep it secret (except for the billions of ride-reports that pretty much detail the route) silly. To each their own, though.
I don't understand;
1) You want someone else to pay for a turn key ride but then they should give it to you??? instead of you going out and scouting a route youself?

2) You really think $40 per state us a load of money and you are in off-road motorcycling?
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:33 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countdown
I don't understand;
1) You want someone else to pay for a turn key ride but then they should give it to you??? instead of you going out and scouting a route youself?

2) You really think $40 per state us a load of money and you are in off-road motorcycling?
I don't want the tracks- I wouldn't pick the route that the TAT goes. Instead, I would indeed scout my own route that went where I'd want to ride. I've already got tracks of my own a good portion of the way- and it's likely that I wouldn't even ride them in entirety without making some changes.

$40 per state adds up quick. Considering that I choose not to pay for driving directions, I wouldn't know whether that's a deal or not.

What I'd like to know though, Countdown, is whether you're the pot or the kettle. You've been sharing the tracks of the Oregon Backroad Discovery Trail for years, and last time I checked it's a for-sale map package that benefits the Oregon Off Highway Vehicle Association. Now there's a set of driving directions that were put together for the same reason the TAT was constructed, only it benefits the off-highway vehicle community instead of a person.

In my book, that puts you playing both sides of the net.
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Old 11-10-2009, 02:48 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by boney
What I'd like to know though, Countdown, is whether you're the pot or the kettle. You've been sharing the tracks of the Oregon Backroad Discovery Trail for years, and last time I checked it's a for-sale map package that benefits the Oregon Off Highway Vehicle Association. Now there's a set of driving directions that were put together for the same reason the TAT was constructed, only it benefits the off-highway vehicle community instead of a person.

In my book, that puts you playing both sides of the net.
Very good question. As I understand it, the O-BCDT (A copy of our CA SMTS) was funded by tax money. I was told this by a rider who's family once owned Denio Junction and he still had a 5th wheel out back. I think his name was Greenstreet. He told me that the state paid him and his wife to lay the O-BCDT out. When he was done, the state signed it, then there was a court decision and the state took the signs down. The bottom line is that I believe that the route was first made public by the state is is therefore in the public domain.

I was also under the impression that the Oregon OHV organization just publishes their maps at cost to promote riding (and tourism for Oregon) and not as a for profit venture. Based on that I was very dissipointed that they do not publish GPS tracks on Internet.

As you may know in California a friend of mine pays the cost for the web site that documents our Statewide Motorized Trial System http://www.smts.info/ . I post the most current GPS tracks on http://www.gpsxchange.com/ . I have also started an SMTS for Nevada and also post it on http://www.gpsxchange.com/ .
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