ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > GSpot > Parallel Universe
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-04-2008, 05:33 PM   #76
J Lewis
Numb Nuts
 
J Lewis's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Pahrump, NV
Oddometer: 495
It was a BMW event and we went on their dime.
JIMMY
J Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2008, 05:35 PM   #77
Django Loco
Banned
 
Django Loco's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: California
Oddometer: 3,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule
Wouldn't make much sense to have a bunch of KTM thumpers in the GS Trophy, now, would it?
It was not a speed rallye, but a brand-based challenge. But you already knew that.
Sorry, I did not have time to read the whole thread on the rally. Just saw pics, never read the text.

And what is a "Challenge" ? When you have support trucks, minders, catered meals, I'd call this more of a luxury BMW launch tour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PackMule
Jimmy is hardly fawning over the bike, if you've bothered to read his commentary. I doubt there's anyone else out there at this point with the combination of seat time, technical bike knowledge, and ability to articulate the whole mess that Jimmy's got.
I've read his comments in this thread but not on the
Rally thread. I'm sure Jimmy will give an accurate review of the bike.
I'd also like to read comments from the German press guys who were there. They tend to be quite frank regards German products.
Django Loco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2008, 05:41 PM   #78
J Lewis
Numb Nuts
 
J Lewis's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Pahrump, NV
Oddometer: 495
http://blogs.dirtrider.com/6327399/n...sia/index.html

Take five minutes before you go blabbing and find out...spelling mistakes and all.



JIMMY
J Lewis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2008, 04:59 PM   #79
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,409
I am done

I have been into the forks 6 times now, testing various weights, volumnes and vicosity and I think I have got it as good as I can, short of a revalve.
I took some pics, but won't post unless somebody needs visual aids.
None of the changes I made caused a "Eureka" moment, each successsful change brought an incremental improvement.
The spring is a continous variable rate spring, using the same size wire as stock, though 7/16" shorter. All other things equal a shorter spring has a higher rate than a longer one. 7/16 is not a whole lot, but as a load is placed on a variable spring and the coils contact one an other they cease to be springs, ie shorter and stiffer. So yes I added stiffer springs.
I tried the new springs with the stock, 7.5 and later 10wt oil at various levels. Both took the sharpness out of the felt impacts though the 10wt with a 70mm gap was a step backwards. 5 wt seemed to do the best with the 70 mm airgap and the Klac went away.
After looking at my SAG numbers, I thought adding a 7/16" longer spacer was in order. Thanks to Ace hardware I added one and went to a 60mm airgap. Didn't have much effect on on impacts but did increase the overall firmness of the spring. A hard charger or heavier rider may prefer this configuration.
For my weight and riding style I think I preferred the stock preload or one marginaly longer.
I went to a TKC tire for the front. Same size but the TKC has a taller sidwall and when aired down more compliance than the Trailwing/max/whatever.
So how bad is it?. Actually pretty good, not dirt bike plush but certainly worth the $200 invested and actually good enough that I believe I will forgo a revalve on the forks.

itsatdm screwed with this post 11-05-2008 at 08:23 PM
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2008, 08:03 PM   #80
tmex
Beastly Adventurer
 
tmex's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: NorCal
Oddometer: 2,039
Good info itsatdm. I think I am going to let Javier revalve mine. The bike is just too darn good not to put some effort into the forks which as delivered are just not at all to my liking. JL's opinion is valuable, but I have a lot of bikes now, and a lot of bikes over the years so I have a very good idea of how the forks should work for me. I am just not going to live with the stock Zokes for much longer. Riding a road like the one in the pic you posted above is torture, and that pretty much describes the roads where I ride.
__________________
my favorite bike - R1200GS
tmex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:03 AM   #81
Desert Dave
Enjoying the moment
 
Desert Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Tracy, CA
Oddometer: 2,652
After a week of ownership I think I've finally been in the dirt enough to post an opinion. Unfortunately I can't offer much in the way of solutions but I'll throw my riding impressions into the mix here.

I haven't tried anything to gnarly yet, but plenty of dirt from smooth to rocks, ruts,washboard, sand, whoops, dry ,wet. Basically the kind of dirt I'll be doing 90% of the time, I'll try the hero stuff later.

Overall this thing works well for what I want to do, but I do definately feel the harshness of the initial travel off sharp edged rocks an washboard, and it's not bottoming. Especially when riding at a moderate pace. If this was the way I rode all the time, I couldn't deal with it for long. Picking up the pace a bit did wonders for the way the bike handles these deflections. Riding rather aggressive took my feelings from poor suspension to at least adequate. I can't say for certain if it's because I was working the suspension harder or the front may have been lighter being on the gas more. As I grew more confident I thought I had to at least try to bottom the front to understand how hard I can ride it. It actually took a fair amount of trying, but on a couple of down hill cross ruts I got off the gas at speed instead opening it up to float over and BAM! yeah it bottomed bad. I checked my rim for dings and it was fine, but I see the potential for bending rims easily, I'm not going to test that if I can help it. I can see how if someone rode this like an MXer or a Dakar bike the conclusion would be that the suspension was to soft, and Jimmy, I'm guessing that your version of "slow" is probably about where my aggressive is (and I'm giving myself way to much credit there ) . I think a fast rider could ride right through the initial harshness.

In most other situations, like smoother whoops even if they are much bigger, I was happy with the suspension. The balance of the bike seems excellent for what I'm doing and inspires confidence in cornering. This thing is a dirt road warrior. On the street it absolutely rails, but even there on potholed, patched backroad I think the initial travel is to stiff. What's the solution? I'm not sure, but based on previous experience with doing mods I'd GUESS that the valving could use some work, to allow more oil to flow on the initial travel. I might try doing a band aid with some lighter oil, but I want to be carefull not to go to far and compromise street handling, although losing some initial stiffness on the street could be a good thing I think. I've done a few stoppies already getting on the front binders hard, yeah the forks will compress but initially feel like a strut on hard braking, then compress.

Fortunately I don't feel the urgency that some may to make changes like others do, but I think that's based on rider style/preference. On another note, doing a Google search on Marzzochi Shiver forks brought some interesting results, reading forums for other bikes with the 45 mm forks the common theme I saw was riders were able to dial them in for motocross and supermoto just fine, but cross country riders were having similar complaints as to what we are hearing here, and having a heck of a time getting them dialed, having to change shim stacks (the adjusters weren't enough). I realize that isn't a direct comparison as I'm sure they were set up different initially, but they were getting similar characteristics.

As has been pointed out this isn't a dirt bike, it's an adventure bike and my version tends to be more on the adventure touring side. The suspension is close, but I'll try to dial it in better for me. Heck, if I could make a set of KLR forks work better for both ends I'd have to think we can do something here also. I think BMW could have done better, but that's for me. I also think with the right suspension this bike could be alot closer to what the KTM guys are lookin for, as the size, wieght and balance of the bike are great, just the suspenders are going to hold you back if you want to play Dakar racer. Oh, while I wouldn't recommend this bike for jumping the rear did fine off the small waterbreaks an bumps I hit at speed where you move much further forward in the air then you do up, which is about the most "big air" I need to do on this bike.

That's a lot of writing but I hope this input helps someone on the fence. The suspension can be many different things to different people, but I almost expect to have to dial suspension on any new bike I get. It's about the only thing on this bike I feel I need to change, besides the slanted plank called a seat . Overall I'm happy. This bike gets me where I want to go, and I have fun doing it. I'll post back here as I try changes and my results.....yours may vary.
__________________
See what I've been up to! Ongoing Ride Report



Desert Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:41 AM   #82
itsatdm
Beastly Adventurer
 
itsatdm's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2004
Location: Nor Ca.
Oddometer: 4,409
DD, give me some notice, next time you are in the area. Maybe we could do some back to back road testing?
itsatdm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 10:05 AM   #83
Gillies
Monkey Boy
 
Gillies's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: Avondale, AZ
Oddometer: 705
What everyone seems to be addressing is high-speed compression damping. Given the lack of adjustment on the forks, what, other than lighter oil, can be done to address this?

Seems that lighter oil will also affect the overall stroke of the forks to the soft side and adversely affect dive when braking and the potential for bottoming. Is this correct?
Gillies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 10:15 AM   #84
Django Loco
Banned
 
Django Loco's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: California
Oddometer: 3,785
Nice report Dave!
Where did you go dirt riding on your GS? I see you're in Tracy so it could be Carnegie? or maybe all the way to the Sierra? I'm sure a run down Mines rd. and the other supertracks in the area have got you up to speed on pavement riding!

On a lot of bikes initial harshness is dealt with by installing heavier fork springs. Counterintuitive, yes, but on many bikes it works wonders.

On both my Vstroms, my DR650 and Tigers, slightly heavier fork springs took away initial harshness. Re-valving by someone who knows Zochs' would also help of course but I'd bet fork springs would go along ways to helping.

Does the F800GS have the type of Marzzochi's (sp?) that have Rebound on one leg and Compression on the other? This always seemed weird to me but I'm told (by suspension Guru's) that is actually works!

It's great the bike works stock at an elevated pace but realistically for most guys doing longer rides on a loaded up bike, maybe even two up, the pace riding OFF ROAD is likely to be quite moderate. Right?

So this means getting beat up by this harshness. Baja washboard and the like will be very tough .... might get old after a day or two.

My guess is most owners will be doing more touring than dual sport riding. The fact that it seems to be harsh even on potholed, rough pavement (our favorite California roads!) means, IMO, something should be done.

I know this bike can be figured out and work beautifully. Just need to get it set up.

Have fun!
Django Loco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 01:46 PM   #85
Zapp22
ZAPP - Tejas
 
Zapp22's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Tejas Hill Country
Oddometer: 13,600
I applaud you.

I'll throw something on the table here. this was sort-of accidental but its quite constructive nonetheless. A real suspension expert could tell us the 'why' behind it.

I have two DR's and a DL650 [weestrom]. both bikes are squishy in stock form, the Weestrom suffers from weight imbalance: the nose carries too much weight, and that weight is aggravated by the levering effect of mounting the entire weight of the fairing etc on a strut jutting out a few inches forward of the front of the frame. The DR's are EXACTLY opposite, well-balanced, lightish on front.
Anyway, I had ridden the weestrom naked last year with front tubes that were hybrid DR/DL [it works... ] giving another full 2" of front height if wanted.
When I was ordering springs, Rich at Sonic Springs mentioned that he had some "shorties" made for another project, that were the right weigh [wire size] for such a thing, and so I bought some heavier .95 sonic straight rates, and also the shorties. So the overall spring "length" ends up pretty long, I don't have the numbers in my head but its DL length plus about 4", 100mm roughly. The rest of the space, about 2", taken up with spacer material. I used 15wt oil [the valves... the entire bottom portion of the tubes are stock DL].

This worked exceptionally well. Well enough that for my skillset, I didn't know how to improve on it any further.

somewhere in the timeframe I also added straight eibach springs to one of my DR's. But the naked long weestrom trumped it easily in terms of soaking up harsh off-pavement stuff and harsh broken pavement etc. Around here, some of the non-maintained 'paved' backroads are worse on the bike than dirt/gravel/churt/rock roads. that's no exagerration.

so, given that experience, on DR number 2, I used the stock progressive weestrom springs plus the "shorties" to see if I could mimic the magick, and so it is. I added just a little oil height to that DR, with the "superlong" progressive-type&shortie-extender. It is much more supple than the DR with the eibach's, and its pretty stiff... I can't bottom it on ordinary jumps.
I weigh about 175 without gear.

The F800GS and the weestrom are about the same weight, but very different in distribution. F800GS would seem to benefit from a bigger diameter tube and reduced front wheel loading. However, at that weight, and that much travel, my understanding is that you're approaching the limits of what can be done with springs/oil, absent a sealed envelope and gas-charging for additional pressure.

someone will eventually find the magic combination and it seems itsatdm has made a huge step fwd. I'm not surprised that reducing the oil weight seems part of the answer


Quote:
Originally Posted by itsatdm
I have been into the forks 6 times now, testing various weights, volumnes and vicosity and I think I have got it as good as I can, short of a revalve.
I took some pics, but won't post unless somebody needs visual aids.
None of the changes I made caused a "Eureka" moment, each successsful change brought an incremental improvement.
The spring is a continous variable rate spring, using the same size wire as stock, though 7/16" shorter. All other things equal a shorter spring has a higher rate than a longer one. 7/16 is not a whole lot, but as a load is placed on a variable spring and the coils contact one an other they cease to be springs, ie shorter and stiffer. So yes I added stiffer springs.
I tried the new springs with the stock, 7.5 and later 10wt oil at various levels. Both took the sharpness out of the felt impacts though the 10wt with a 70mm gap was a step backwards. 5 wt seemed to do the best with the 70 mm airgap and the Klac went away.
After looking at my SAG numbers, I thought adding a 7/16" longer spacer was in order. Thanks to Ace hardware I added one and went to a 60mm airgap. Didn't have much effect on on impacts but did increase the overall firmness of the spring. A hard charger or heavier rider may prefer this configuration.
For my weight and riding style I think I preferred the stock preload or one marginaly longer.
I went to a TKC tire for the front. Same size but the TKC has a taller sidwall and when aired down more compliance than the Trailwing/max/whatever.
So how bad is it?. Actually pretty good, not dirt bike plush but certainly worth the $200 invested and actually good enough that I believe I will forgo a revalve on the forks.
__________________
Zapp
"I will not let the White City fall... nor our people fail.” - Aragorn
K4 WEESTROM Stealthfighter Black -SOLD - Invisible to Radar, '02 DR650SE SOLD ,'Ole 97' DR650SE My Fave K5 WEESTROM ADVbomber
Zapp22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 02:35 PM   #86
Desert Dave
Enjoying the moment
 
Desert Dave's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Tracy, CA
Oddometer: 2,652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Django Loco
Nice report Dave!
Where did you go dirt riding on your GS? I see you're in Tracy so it could be Carnegie? or maybe all the way to the Sierra? I'm sure a run down Mines rd. and the other supertracks in the area have got you up to speed on pavement riding!
Haven't been to Carnagie on it, but did do a little stop at Frank Raines last week. Mines road is a regular for me. Remember there isn't much here in Tracy, but "all the way" to the Sierras is only an hour and I can be on dirt roads. Side benefit to living in the valley, bay area work and the Sierras every weekend

Before I do anything with springs or oil I'll probably take Gary up on his offer for back to back riding and see what he's figured out an go from there.

Yeah, I think there is definately a sweet spot between fast an slow that works for me, but loaded, on a trip I doubt I'd be able to ride like that.
__________________
See what I've been up to! Ongoing Ride Report



Desert Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 03:32 PM   #87
johngil
Reseda, CA
 
johngil's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Oddometer: 3,678
I'm hating the seat much more than the suspension right now.
While the forks are a bit abrupt, I don't hate them.
johngil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:11 PM   #88
trailtrick
goat trail rider
 
trailtrick's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2008
Location: socal
Oddometer: 3,306
We did a lot o testing this pass week on the 800 gs and we came to the conclusion the heavy springs with the right preload made the bike ride better ,so we move on and play with the base /midvalve and the results were phenomenal, wash board and rocks up to 6 inchs went complete away and the front end stays high in the stroke and well planted ,now the next step is work on fit a diferent shock with remote reservoir and see how the overall handling o the bike gets in regular off road ridding .
__________________
"Vive tus sueños en vida, no la vida en sueños.

Kampale Moto Ranch
Bed and Breakfast
mototours/uruguay south america
trailtrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:27 PM   #89
johngil
Reseda, CA
 
johngil's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Oddometer: 3,678
I'll be calling you soon Javier...

I'm going to talk to Works Performance for the rear unless you have a better solution.

johngil screwed with this post 11-09-2008 at 07:53 PM
johngil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #90
John Ashman
Adventurer Wannabe
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Viejo Mexico
Oddometer: 1,022
Just curious, has anyone that didn't like the 800GS suspension taken out the 650GS? Better? Worse?
John Ashman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 02:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014