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Old 12-13-2010, 11:03 AM   #12736
Lornce
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
As much as I like the P-38 for its inherent accuracy and ergonomics, I have to say that IMO, it represents the worst features of ‘German engineering’, namely, a mania for overcomplicating everything. Considering its intended role as the standard military and police sidearm at a time when Germany was gearing up for a major war, the sensible solution would have been a relatively simple design that could be manufactured quickly and cheaply by moderately skilled workmen. Instead, Carl Walther produced one of the most complicated pistols in history, not just measured in terms of sheer parts count, but by the amount of careful machining required to create it. By way of illustration, here’s a view of just the barrel, which had to be machined from a single piece of steel:



The frame is even worse, requiring so many individual milling steps that it boggles the mind. It's only when you look inside it from various angles that you can appreciate how complicated it truly is. From a manufacturing perspective, there is only one thing I like about it: the fact it's designed so that the plastic grips, not the frame itself (as in the case of other pistols) can be shaped to fit the shooter's hand. This not only simplifies its manufacture, but allows for the possiblity of modifying the plastic grips at a later time without having to redesign the frame. Many modern pistol designs use this approach, and an increasing number of new models even come with replaceable grips.


For us uninitiated types, could you kindly post a view of the slide so it all makes sense?


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Old 12-13-2010, 11:14 AM   #12737
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Originally Posted by DC950 View Post
compared to a Luger or C-96, the P-38 isn't that complicated. Labor was cheap back then. Making something like the P-38 gave plenty of previously unemployed Germans a job.
The Luger was indeed a nightmare. It was also rather fragile. The C-96, I'm not sure about. I've seen a partially disassembled one, and it didn't look as complex as the P-38. The exploded diagram of one certainly looks simpler (36 parts vs. 55 for the P-38):

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/prod...products_id=71

I'd love to do a 3-D model of a Broomhandle Mauser, but finding someone willing to lend me one is the problem.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:19 AM   #12738
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
For us uninitiated types, could you kindly post a view of the slide so it all makes sense?


I don't have a view of just the slide, but I'll create one tonight. For now, here's a partial assembly view, showing the slide:

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:22 AM   #12739
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I think the P08 was the most overengineered gun of all time....
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:35 AM   #12740
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I'm no engineer, but the way the P38 is set up reminds me quite a bit of the Beretta 92/M9 series, suspect the P38 may have been a predecessor of that design, or at least some aspects of it.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:36 AM   #12741
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The germans loved to be on the cutting edge with everything back then, fuel injection in fighter planes, jets, subs....all of that stuff was cutting edge....I think it is that or 1898 nagant revolvers at the other end of the scale. Every nation did new and cutting edge stuff back then...just not in as many areas as the germans did.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:40 AM   #12742
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Originally Posted by Sniper X View Post
I think the P08 was the most overengineered gun of all time....
It doesn't look as bad as I'd thought:

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/prod...57336b5a2febff

The frame is a model of simplicity compared to that of the P-38.

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Old 12-13-2010, 11:42 AM   #12743
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
It doesn't look as bad as I'd thought:

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/prod...57336b5a2febff

The frame is a piece of cake compared to that of the P-38.

True, but wait till you get to the toggle....plus the tollerances were so tight, it was a nightmare to build. Plus it was horrid to keep working on the battlefiled.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:47 AM   #12744
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Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
I'm no engineer, but the way the P38 is set up reminds me quite a bit of the Beretta 92/M9 series, suspect the P38 may have been a predecessor of that design, or at least some aspects of it.
Yep, according to my gunsmith, Beretta copied several key aspects of the P-38. Unfortunately the 92F not only contains the same weak point on the slide, but its designers also eliminated the internal lugs which prevent the slide from recoiling into the shooters face when it breaks.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:52 AM   #12745
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Originally Posted by Sniper X View Post
True, but wait till you get to the toggle....plus the tollerances were so tight, it was a nightmare to build. Plus it was horrid to keep working on the battlefiled.
I wonder if its tolerances could have been loosened up for battlefield use. It would also make it easier to build.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:53 AM   #12746
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Who is going to build the next incarnation of the modern broomhandle?
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:57 AM   #12747
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
I wonder if its tolerances could have been loosened up for battlefield use. It would also make it easier to build.
I am sure they could, just like they did with the government 1911s compared to the ones they sold the public later.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:01 PM   #12748
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Question

Sniper et al: where can one find Pre-1940 Mosin Nagant rifles? I recently saw Bud's Gun blow through nearly 2,000 of some vintage but the guess is they were post-1940 models...
Bud's price was $92
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:10 PM   #12749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapp22 View Post
Sniper et al: where can one find Pre-1940 Mosin Nagant rifles? I recently saw Bud's Gun blow through nearly 2,000 of some vintage but the guess is they were post-1940 models...
Bud's price was $92
AIM Surplus, Big 5 Sporting Goods, Century Arms, etc...
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:24 PM   #12750
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Originally Posted by Zapp22 View Post
Sniper et al: where can one find Pre-1940 Mosin Nagant rifles? I recently saw Bud's Gun blow through nearly 2,000 of some vintage but the guess is they were post-1940 models...
Bud's price was $92
Hand inspect or pay for hand select or buy used.

Most desirable would be pre ww2 ... good luck finding one though.
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