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Old 01-03-2011, 05:29 AM   #13231
Aurelius
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Originally Posted by El Guero View Post
I always hear this, just how inaccurate is an AK? I guess the only think I could really compare it to right now would be my 10/22
The ones made by Norinco that I've shot were so innacurate as to defy belief. Consistently hitting a 10" diameter paper plate at 50 meters was about all we could manage. It's not just the horrible trigger that I disliked, but the fact that it had the curious habit of rotating the muzzle up and to the right with every shot, almost as if someone were pushing the barrel from the side. It's even less accurate, IMO, than the Chinese made SKS I had years ago, and I never thought I'd say that about any rifle.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:10 AM   #13232
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Just about time for the old Mosin to step aside.

My old Mosin let me down this year with a shot that looked to be about 300 yards and this after going into dies, brass, two different bullet types, multiple trips to the range, careful record keeping of loads...

I couldn't pull loads together that would do any better then the best mil surplus I found. The rifle never shot any better then about a 1.5 to 2 MOA.

So after all this work I ended up using my foreman's Savage 270 to make a 100 yard shot that took my buck this year.

I have fallen in love with another rifle that will be mine before this next hunting season. It's the Stainless Tikka T3 Lite chambered in .308 Winchester. It's guaranteed to do 3 rounds MOA straight out of the box with over the counter rounds.

These claims seem strange being the gun comes out of the box without iron sights or scope but all I have read are good thing about this rifle.

Okay other then they had some misfortune early on with the stainless barrels but from I have gathered that was one lot of bad metal.

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Old 01-03-2011, 06:17 AM   #13233
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:45 AM   #13234
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:46 AM   #13235
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
Cue for Model 27 pron.




They don't make 'em like that anymore.
Oh my, that is just sweeeeet!
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:03 AM   #13236
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Originally Posted by HardCase View Post
I doubt that there are many AKs out there that'll shoot 3MOA. I'd suspect that 5MOA might be more the norm. Or "Minute of Barn Door".

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for someone to chime in and claim that his AK will shoot 1.5MOA all day long......
It depends on the ammo and the gun. I tried this as an exercise once; I put a scope on a Valmet and on a Norinco and I tried various ammo ranging from mil-surplus to 'match' ammo. I did get below 3 MOA on both rifles, but just barely.

The Valmet (M78) mounted the scope on the dust cover so naturally it moved around. I did some hacks to cinch the cover down temporarily but it did not work very well. Both Valmets I owned (M78 and M76 IIRC) were military battle rifles not made for precision so I didn't expect much, I just wanted to know. I finally sold them because I was not too happy about the fact that the mags were $150 a piece although I could have used modified HK 91 mags (that is what they were based on).

The Norinco is chambered for .223 and the scope mount I have is very solid, but still, even with match ammo, I can't get below 2.5 MOA. I doubt there would be much I could do to it to improve that. I don't particularly care - I don't use it for benchrest competitions. It was just nice to know and so I can answer posts like this. If you don't measure you don't know and people who claim to know how imprecise an AK is without actually measuring it don't know either.

AKs are supremely reliable and durable and while most won't shoot under 2 MOA all day long, they will shoot all day long, every week, every month, all year long everywhere.

With one fave Norinco in 7.62x39 which has a rather short sight radius of less than 8 inches I can hit man sized targets at 500 meters standing off hand about half the time. Or at least I could when I was younger (my eyes are not so good now, but that is not the guns fault).

I bet if you took an older generic AR15 you probably would see 2 to 3 MOA, maybe sub 2 MOA. From what I read the M16s that the NRA tested and from the Blake Stevens history of the M16, the generic M16/AR15 is not all that precise either, although better than the AK.

Naturally many of the newer AR15s are supremely accurate because many manufacturers have put a lot of effort into making them so. Certainly the potential is there more than any AK.

But you know what? If I had to defend myself, I would choose an AK any day of the week, all day long.

Oh, and BTW, the 7.62x39 cartridge can be very accurate shot in the right rifle, there is nothing wrong with it. The NRA did some tests on it in a few different bolt action rifles.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:16 AM   #13237
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
The ones made by Norinco that I've shot were so innacurate as to defy belief. Consistently hitting a 10" diameter paper plate at 50 meters was about all we could manage. It's not just the horrible trigger that I disliked, but the fact that it had the curious habit of rotating the muzzle up and to the right with every shot, almost as if someone were pushing the barrel from the side. It's even less accurate, IMO, than the Chinese made SKS I had years ago, and I never thought I'd say that about any rifle.
Thats weird because I had a Norinco 870 clone, (Hawk), and it was BETTER than any stock 870 I ever had or shot. And I know a few people who have Norico M1's and al;l of them say outstanding things about them....wonder if the AKs are different in the manu process or from a different plant?
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:20 AM   #13238
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242 verified kills
And 400 supposedly, BUT Hayha of Finland had 542...verified...wonder why no one knows who he is? Or that some female Rusky snipers had as many as 300 confirmed and not one mention of any of them....funny how even History shows there are popular celebs even in sniping!
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:24 AM   #13239
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
Cue for Model 27 pron.





























They don't make 'em like that anymore.
No they don't, which is sad. I love a classy revolver like the S&Ws, and Colts of the early days. Which is why I have gotten back into them as of a couple years ago and now have as many as I have 1911's more actually.

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Old 01-03-2011, 08:25 AM   #13240
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:34 AM   #13241
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Originally Posted by CodeMonkee View Post
I bet if you took an older generic AR15 you probably would see 2 to 3 MOA, maybe sub 2 MOA. From what I read the M16s that the NRA tested and from the Blake Stevens history of the M16, the generic M16/AR15 is not all that precise either, although better than the AK.
A friend of mine was a gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps. He says he'd train his men to consistently hit human sized torso targets at 600 yards with their M-16's, using only iron sights. According to him, the target at that range was smaller than the front sight, so there was a bit of guess work required, but the guns were certainly up to the task. He also mentioned that the M-16's they were issued proved to be very reliable in Desert Storm. He'd clean his after some 500 rounds had been fired, and it never malfunctioned, even with all the sand dust in the air.

Quote:
Naturally many of the newer AR15s are supremely accurate because many manufacturers have put a lot of effort into making them so. Certainly the potential is there more than any AK.
There are so many AR-15 variants on the market that it's difficult to make a general statement about them, but my Rock River Arms M4 will shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards out of the box. Lately it has begun to jam occasionally until the gun warms up (typically after 20 rounds), and it's a PITA to open the bolt when it does stick, unlike an AK, which you can beat on with a rock.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:37 AM   #13242
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Originally Posted by Sniper X View Post
Thats weird because I had a Norinco 870 clone, (Hawk), and it was BETTER than any stock 870 I ever had or shot. And I know a few people who have Norico M1's and al;l of them say outstanding things about them....wonder if the AKs are different in the manu process or from a different plant?
One of the differences are the stamped vs. milled receivers. The milled receivers are supposed to be better but, as you know, if the receiver is out of whack, it's poop.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:01 AM   #13243
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One of the differences are the stamped vs. milled receivers. The milled receivers are supposed to be better but, as you know, if the receiver is out of whack, it's poop.
Yep.....but if it's IN whack, it is stellar.
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:06 AM   #13244
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"IN whack" is a completely under-rated technical phrase.

I think.



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Old 01-03-2011, 09:16 AM   #13245
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Originally Posted by Lornce View Post
"IN whack" is a completely under-rated technical phrase.

I think.



And underused....
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