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Old 12-11-2014, 11:38 PM   #1
Vicks OP
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2010 KTM 530Exc smoking - pls help !!

Hi all,

Last week i went out on a ride with a couple of friends. While gearing up i left the engine running to warm it up and i noticed that when warmed up there was a lot of smoke from the exhaust. It was smoking out of the exhaust flange, head pipe-muffler joint as well - it was that bad. It was white smoke and smelled like slightly burnt oil (not charred - if you know what i mean), definitely not coolant. I thought it could be overfilled engine oil or broken rings or over oiled air filter or bad valve guide seal. I had freshly oiled the air filter before the ride so i thought it was excess oil getting burned off so i went ahead with the ride. It was an easy trail ride and i noticed only a hint of smoke when we stopped for a mid way break. After returning from the ride, i opened up the valve cover and checked all the valve guide seals which were found intact. This was all a week ago.

Today, i started up the bike to generally check for things in preparation for a ride in the desert tomorrow.

When i started the bike from cold, there was no smoke. However, after idling for a 3-5 minutes (warm engine i would say) it started smoking. this time i took a video as you can see there is quite some smoke when i let go of the throttle.



I opened up the air box, removed the filter and checked but its all clean inside and there is no excess oil going into the intake. the valve guide seals checked out OK last week.

I bought the bike used last year and this is the first time its happening. PO said that the engine was rebuilt roughly 60-90hours ago and the bike has been used hard (rally usage) with meticulous maintenance carried out by an independent KTM shop in Dubai. I have been cleaning air filters every other ride and changing oils regularly. Recently i started using ATF in the gearbox to sort out my neutral finding issue although i don't think it has any thing to do with the smoking engine.

what do you guys make of this ?
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:38 AM   #2
Navin
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Drain n measure both oil cavities and check compression via leak down.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin View Post
Drain n measure both oil cavities and check compression via leak down.
Thanks. Is a leak down test different from the regular compression test done from the spark plug hole ? I should probably do some reading.

Do you think that there is oil transfer happening between cases ? I checked and the oil level is OK - lower than halfway on the sight glass after a full warm up of the engine and i think that the oils are not moving between cases because the ATF will colour the engine oil. my engine side oil is darkened (close to 8hrs - needs a change) thats all.
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Old 12-12-2014, 01:29 PM   #4
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A regular compression test is ok, but with a leak down you fill the cylinder and measure loss. You may even hear leaking air and be able to pin it down by ear. It will give you a real measure of the engine condition too. Keep a record of it. My 530 would blow smoke sometimes too. It was fine inside when it got rebuilt. No problems but once in awhile it puffed blue smoke. I rebuilt for power, not the smoke.
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Old 12-12-2014, 05:22 PM   #5
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I see it's a 2010 so it shouldn't have issues that were more common to the 2008 models - can you tell us if the bike is desmogged or does crankcase and gearbox ventilation still get routed back into the intake system at any of the original points?
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:02 PM   #6
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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...php?p=13968078

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Old 12-12-2014, 09:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navin View Post
A regular compression test is ok, but with a leak down you fill the cylinder and measure loss. You may even hear leaking air and be able to pin it down by ear. It will give you a real measure of the engine condition too. Keep a record of it. My 530 would blow smoke sometimes too. It was fine inside when it got rebuilt. No problems but once in awhile it puffed blue smoke. I rebuilt for power, not the smoke.
Will try to find a compression tester today and check that although i'm not sure if will be able to do the leakdown test myself - i can probably manage to pressurize the chamber but won't be able to measure the leak % without appropriate tools.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alongat View Post
I see it's a 2010 so it shouldn't have issues that were more common to the 2008 models - can you tell us if the bike is desmogged or does crankcase and gearbox ventilation still get routed back into the intake system at any of the original points?
Its an EU model and has been stripped of all the additional plumbing related to secondary air injection. The crank case breather (gear box) and valve cover breather (engine) go into a T and connect to the intake at the throttle body.



Quote:
Originally Posted by guns_equal_freedom View Post
This was the first thing i checked when i came back from the previous ride and all valve guide seals checked out OK (it was tough to get a good look at the RHS intake valve due to a restricted angle of view).
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Old 12-13-2014, 04:42 AM   #8
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So i bought a compression tester and the results are as below.

Cold engine : throttle fully open

Sl. Reading (psi)
1. 60
2. 60
3. 60
4. 60
5. 60

pretty dismal compression readings right ?

in order to verify if its the rings, i shot a few drops of oil in to the chamber and repeated the tests with following results :

Sl. Reading (psi)
1. 80
2. 80
3. 80
4. 80
5. 80

looks like the oil helped the rings/piston seal better leading to improved compression.

what do you guys say ?

I still don't have a leak down tester but looking at the readings is there any doubt that the issue is with the rings/piston ?
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Old 12-13-2014, 05:21 AM   #9
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The reason I was asking was if crankcase and / or gearbox pressure is building (not enough ventilation and/or blow-by caused pressure) as the engine warms up, oil could be getting pushed into your intake and drawn in by the carburetor along with air and fuel, causing the oil smoke out the exhaust. I see your compression findings below - I don't know how they compare to what's expected of this engine. If you are finding that crankcase / gearbox pressure is in fact building and pushing oil into the intake, there could be several causes (from simple stuff that plagued some of the early models of the 530 to poor rings and other more complicated / expensive causes). If you're willing to do so, why not take that combined breather hose (after the T, where it goes back into the intake) and route it into a container, etc and plug up the intake where it normally connects, run the bike, let it warm and record the results? What you want (and perhaps even hope for) is to see oil in your catch container and no smoke coming out of your exhaust once the engine warms up. Just make sure you know how much oil you have in both the crankcase and the gearbox first so you can document which volume of oil is being consumed / burned.

[QUOTE=Vicks;25700380
Its an EU model and has been stripped of all the additional plumbing related to secondary air injection. The crank case breather (gear box) and valve cover breather (engine) go into a T and connect to the intake at the throttle body.




[/QUOTE]
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Old 12-13-2014, 07:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alongat View Post
The reason I was asking was if crankcase and / or gearbox pressure is building (not enough ventilation and/or blow-by caused pressure) as the engine warms up, oil could be getting pushed into your intake and drawn in by the carburetor along with air and fuel, causing the oil smoke out the exhaust. I see your compression findings below - I don't know how they compare to what's expected of this engine. If you are finding that crankcase / gearbox pressure is in fact building and pushing oil into the intake, there could be several causes (from simple stuff that plagued some of the early models of the 530 to poor rings and other more complicated / expensive causes). If you're willing to do so, why not take that combined breather hose (after the T, where it goes back into the intake) and route it into a container, etc and plug up the intake where it normally connects, run the bike, let it warm and record the results? What you want (and perhaps even hope for) is to see oil in your catch container and no smoke coming out of your exhaust once the engine warms up. Just make sure you know how much oil you have in both the crankcase and the gearbox first so you can document which volume of oil is being consumed / burned.
Appreciate your inputs.

I think oil burning can happen because of :
1. pressurized crankcase due to blow by (worn piston/rings) pushing oil into the intake
OR
2. Oil getting sucked through intake valve guide seal which has been dislocated from its position.

what are the other reasons these engines can burn oil ?



If we consider that in my case, its because of the crankcase pressure building up, then it should be due to one of the above reasons. I'm guessing that its because of a bad piston/ring because the valve guide seals checked out OK. I will however, disconnect the vent lines from the intake and run the engine to see if it still burns any oil. Will update once i do this test.

The compression figures i recorded are pretty bad as far as i understand from reading a few sources. It should be in the >150psi range for a healthy 4T engine. Low compression engines run around 180psi when good. The auto decompression could result in such low figures but thats why you have to crank the motor long enough that the ADC disengages and allows normal compression to build up. I made sure that in all of the readings above, i had a healthy battery and cranked it for more than 5-6 seconds while holding the throttle wide open.

The compression getting bumped up to 80psi after squirting a few drops of oil also indicates that its the rings that are worn/damaged and not doing their job.

PS : now that i think about it, i remember the engine oil used to get really dark in a short while on my bike. This might be related to blow-by caused by bad rings - just a thought.
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Old 12-13-2014, 08:59 AM   #11
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I'm not trying to debate whether or not your engine is suffering from poor compression but to answer your question:

There are other issues that can cause your engine to "burn" oil. For example, anything that causes crankcase and / or gearbox pressure; enough to push oil out of it could very well be a source of your oil burning. If you slowly poured oil into your carbeurater intake while th engine was running, that oil would burn along with combustion. If you agree so far, consider the following potential causes (instead of or in addition to poor ring sealing) for oil pushed out of breathers and I to the intake:
1- misaligned vent holes in the kickstart idle gear (I know this from personal experience) - the holes drilled into the sides of the shank of the idler gear need to be aligned with the holes drilled into the bushing that is pressed into this idler gear. I took Hodakaguy's advice based on him finding this misalignment in other bikes and IT was the case on my former 530 - easy fix, piece of cake. What happens here? The gearbox cannot properly vent and causes oil to get pushed out of the breather and / or through the crank end-seal into the engine and causing an "overfill" situation which will push oil out the breather (and in your case, into your intake)
2- poor or worn seal at the end of the crank (clutch basket side of the engine) - again, this will cause oil to flow from either the crankcase into the gearbox or vice versa - either way, it creates the same "overfill" condition which will push oil out through the breather and in your case, into your intake
3- defective oil suction pump o-ring - guess what; same "overfill" condition can happen here - etc...

All three of the above noted scenarios are real and well documented in other threads. Granted, most of these issues were solutioned for 2009 and newer bikes but there are cases on those newer bikes where the same things occurred.

So what I've suggested can really help you identify any potential "breathing" or "overfill" conditions. The easiest first step would be to disconnect the combined breathing hose from your intake and temporarily plug up the intake. Run the engine until it's warm enough to cause smoking and if you don't get smoking but you do get oil spewing out of the combined breathers, then that is at least one reason why you're burning oil. Then you can take a few other steps such as isolating one breather from the other and measuring oil pushed out of one or both of them and comparing against how much oil you filled each engine / gearbox capacities with.

This first step and the following ones can all be performed without dismantling any of the engine versus opening things up and checking rings, valve seals, etc.

Rule out the easy stuff first is what I always say to myself...hope this helps.
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Old 12-13-2014, 09:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Vicks View Post

what do you guys say ?

I still don't have a leak down tester but looking at the readings is there any doubt that the issue is with the rings/piston ?

I think that a leak down test is the only way to go because that bike has an automatic compression release which makes a compression test pretty much useless.

(The smoke looks like coolant to me from here, remove the radiator cap when you get to the leak down test and watch for bubbles there.)
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Old 12-13-2014, 09:55 AM   #13
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I agree with larryboy on both counts.
Generally, oil smoke has a bluish tint to it and doesn't dissipate anywhere near as fast as the smoke (or steam) in your vid.
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Old 12-13-2014, 10:22 AM   #14
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and this is how the spark plug looked upon removal when i did the compression test.



smelled of burnt oil and had oil on the first few threads.


Tomorrow, i will isolate the breather from the intake and run the engine to confirm the overfill/pressurizing condition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larryboy View Post
I think that a leak down test is the only way to go because that bike has an automatic compression release which makes a compression test pretty much useless.

(The smoke looks like coolant to me from here, remove the radiator cap when you get to the leak down test and watch for bubbles there.)
Does it not help even if you crank the engine for more than 6-10 seconds by which time the ADC should have disengaged ? My engine fires up within 2-3 seconds of cranking normally.

Once i can get hold of a leakdown tester, i will do that test as well.
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Old 12-13-2014, 10:37 AM   #15
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Does it not help even if you crank the engine for more than 6-10 seconds by which time the ADC should have disengaged ? My engine fires up within 2-3 seconds of cranking normally.

The starter can never spin the engine fast enough to turn the decomp "off", only a running engine can do that. Elapsed time has nothing to do with it.
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