Dakar Rally 2005 route and details announced

[Grover]

At least I'm brave enough to come up with my own thoughts about the LC8 banning. Come up with something yourself or

Look, I don't just make shit up and sell it as the truth when something makes absolutely no sense - and banning big twins, which have been part and parcel of Dakar for many years without particular incident or unfair dominance of the podium definitely qualifies as something that makes no sense.

The point I'm trying to make if you're trying to build an argument for a far-out theory, you need to first make a logical claim, then you need to support it with direct evidence or at least a strong pattern of indirect evidence.

So far, although your theories have been amoeba-like and unclear, the central one has been "big bikes are hard to navigate, and it's unfair that they can make up that navigation deficiency by going fast on flatter stages". These are two separate arguments making completely unrelated claims. Let's break it down to their individual arguments so this can make sense.

"big bikes are hard to navigate" - Without even discussing the lack of precendent of the claim in the first place, the larger implication here is navigation errors are so unsafe that it merits banning an entire class of vehicle. This doesn't make sense. Dakar is purposely designed to be extremely difficult to navigate - so much so that the designers even throw in obstacles like box canyons between the start and the direct route so that if you use the GPS heading instead of the roadbook, you will be screwing yourself over and more likely to get lost. Furthermore, every competitor supposedly carries emergency GPS systems and some kind of communications gear (maybe a satellite phone?) to call for help if they truly get lost and stuck. If the organizers are not afraid of throwing navigational hazards at the competitors, and there are more options for the truly lost, there's no compelling reason to believe navigation is enough of a safety hazard to ban a class of vehicles.

"they make up that time by going unfairly fast in the flat stages" - Okay, this is really the heart of your argument. The implication is clearly big bikes are too fast and must be banned. This argument has serious flaws. How often does a twin actually win the Dakar? If I remember right, the last twin to do before 2002 was a Cagiva Elefant way back when. That particular bike raced this year too, but didn't do very well. There isn't much of a pattern here, and certainly not of big-bike dominance deserving an outright ban without even an attempt at handicapping. Even more telling was Fretigne's performance (6th place!) on one of the smallest (if not THE smallest) bikes in the entire race, right next to Meoni with *half* the displacement! Obviously, the size of the bike isn't everything.

When I said "Something is rotten in Paris" my point is that there is so little evidence for any good reason to ban the big bikes, that I suspect the reason has nothing to do with a safety or fairness issue so severe that there is no remedy but banning. What that is, I don't know, but something is definitely fishy.

[Stromrider 1583]

I haven't been able to find anything that states an official reason for the ban of twins over 450cc. No mention of 3's or 4's ...

For the conspiracy lovers this could be a behind the scenes move by Triumph to get the KTM's banned and make a place on the podium for the Tiger ...

Seriously, big twins have not proved dominant. They have proved hard to ride and expensive. Dakar seems to be making changes to control expense and make the entry of amateurs easier. They have limited Trucks to 150kph, I presume that this is to control costs and increase safety. The new rule keeps existing big singles and I'm sure they see the writing on the wall re: 2WD motos. After last year I expect to see experienced riders on 2WD motos and would not be surprised to see one on the podium next year or 2006 for sure.

It may be as simple as a cost cutting/safety measure with no ulterior motive.

[Jabba]

Cost control for privateers- and a reigning in of top speed seem to make the most sense... but let's look at the long term effects this decision could have. The bikes that most folks on this site ride are in some way related to the Dakar. The R80GS was born out of a desire to race and win the Dakar- and that bike is given credit in most circles as being the birth of the whole class of bikes that we all love so much. This rule change has basically made all of these production bikes orphans. Is the category strong enough to warrant it's own existence... or is this the beginning of the end for twin cylinder dual sport bikes? Certainly, the GS will live on in some fashion for a very long time- it's too popular not to. But what about the other manufacturers? Are they going to introduce new designs when there is nowhere to race the prototype and build some loyalty for the design? This rules change is not good for the competition, not good for the fans and not good for the market. Is there anybody out there who knows what we can do as a group of loyal fans and enthusiasts to let the organizers know we're not happy about it?

[Stromrider 1583]

I just got my flame suit out of the wash ...

Seems to be the Dakar BMW's were spawned from the /5 ISDT bikes. I'm not sure how much the average rider identifies with Dakar bikes. Trying to create a class for big trailies in the Dakar would be like creating a Escalade/Hummer class so that people could look at their SUV with the 19" chrome wheels at Starbucks and see a Dakar winner.

I think the market for big adventure bikes will sustain itself, the bikes are just too good at everything a motorcycle should do to fade away because no bikes of that size are in the Dakar. A compromise might be to have a big bore amateur production class to showcase "real" bikes.

(just rambling here)

[Jabba]

They HAD that- and they're in the process of fucking it up. I'm not asking them to create anything special... They did that 20 years ago! I'm asking them to leave it the hell alone!

[Matthias_Z]

no more big twins ... well, then i have much more time that i will _not_ spend in front of the TV-Screen. The big Twins were the last reason for me to watch the show.

Is there a sense in banning the big twins? Not in my opinion.

The only reason could be to ban BMW from starting at the Dakar with a modified 1200GS and to get back manufacturers competition to the race.
And KTM is for sure not interested in competition in that segment ..

Well, thats all only rumors ...

Best,
Matthias

[sparky69]

zijspan ;
its obvious the hd factory has a lot of faith in you to part with a couple of v-rod motors. i wasen't aware of the anti-knock sensor(s) you referred to. i know the new 12 GS has one oxygen sensor for ea cylinder for the same reason i.e. bad / low octane gas from a barrel in peru.
you have definitely made the race more interesting especially with the big twin ban now in effect.
GOOD LUCK ! & watch out for day 6 of the race ; it seems to be the "day of reconing" for many.

[Spanish Bob]

Originally Posted by Zijspan

The route for Dakar 2005 has been announced. This year it begins in Spain, procedes through Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, and finishes in Dakar, Senagal. Of particular interest is the fact that they appear to have banned twin-cylinder 2-wheelers greater than 450cc. There are a few other moderate changes including an expanded quad class, significantly shorter route for assistance vehicles, and a few GPS related changes. My preparations continue: www.HogWildRacing.com

More info on the Dakar web site: www.Dakar.com

dragging this thread back on topic..... its the Barcelona-Dakar. Im pretty happyabout that!

[impi]

Originally Posted by Zijspan

..
Of particular interest is the fact that they appear to have banned twin-cylinder 2-wheelers greater than 450cc.

The regs does not state whether the ban on the twins is total capacity per cylinder or total engine capacity. If it is per cylinder it would mean that it maxes out at 900cc - pretty much the point at which the Beemers that Lewis and Deacon rode on was built out to.

[Cat0020]

This just in from KTM Rally Services:

> Dear Rally Customer,
> we are considering to offer a 450cc motor kit for the Dakar 2005 and would
> like to get a feedback of how many riders would be interested. The engine
> will be compatible with Rally bikes 2001 or newer. There are no prices or
> further information available at this moment. Our capacities are very
> limited and if this project is going to take off depends on the respond to
> this e-mail.
> If you are interested please get in contact with me before the 2nd of June
> 2004. I will come back to you with further details as soon as they are
> available.
> best regards
>
> KTM Sportmotorcycle AG
> Rally Service
>
> Tatjana Hayward
> Tel. +43 664 816 2337
> Fax +43 7742 6000-5861
> e-mail: tatjana.hayward@ktm.at
>
>