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Old 12-17-2011, 03:36 AM   #481
sabink
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Below Freezing they work great, we are pretty big in the snow mobile community...The reason is this, you can have a battery that is pumping out 480 cold cranking amps and at 480 cranking amps in a 1200cc sled in below zero temps it is not being fazed by the cold because it has so much overhead power...


So is the A123 Better in the Cold? In theory the A123 should be a bit better even if the CCA were EQUAL because it has the ability to produce a faster more powerful Pulse... But honestly I don't think it would be much different give exactly equal CCAs..... Not different enough to matter.... But the reason why the A123 would accel is because it allows for a smaller more compact unit to produce much higher cranking amps than Prismatic... So the Shorai LFX 27 with 405 CCA still doesn't come close to the power of our 16cell 480CCA yet is much bigger and more expensive....That is why the snow mobile guys dig us is because they can flip the motor no matter how cold it is with a 480 CCa battery that is only 4.5" long and weigh 3.4 pounds...
I'm thankful that you opened up my eyes about the warranty difference, as I was never going to spend the time reading it!

What is the ok temperature for the battery? Not outside. I ask because usually it's very hot where the battery is located and I have heard that heat is the #1 enemy for Lithium batteries.

Do you ship to Europe?
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:38 PM   #482
Scott Baja
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So, have any of you bikers used the Antigravity batteries, and if so for how long has it been in the bike, and whats your opinion? I live in Montana and the stock battery failed me in cold weather. I even tried jump starting from a truck and drained its battery and it needed to be jumped. What Im asking is, what battery, if any, will turn over the 950 below 25 degree F
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Old 12-21-2011, 12:01 AM   #483
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Interesting products, those LiFePo batteries. But ofcourse Antigravity will say their battery is the best and Shorai will say their battery is the best. That is not so informative for us customers.

I am sure both will have pluses and minuses on various aspects (warm crancking, cold cranking, capacity, durability and lifetime, robustness to withstand draining, warranty, availability outside North America, weight, voltage drop during storage...) Some aspects are more important than others, depending from customer to customer.

I would be interested to see an independent comparison between Shorai, Antigravity, others, to test the performance of these batteries taking all these aspects into account. Just dropping the idea
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:58 AM   #484
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My Shorai barely started my CBF1000 a few weeks ago when the temps were around 32F. I was just loading the bike onto the trailer to head south from Canada. Will see if the bike starts OK once down in AZ. I know they said a few posts back that lots of sledders were using these batteries but so far my cold weather experience hasn't been real positive.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:22 AM   #485
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My Shorai barely started my CBF1000 a few weeks ago when the temps were around 32F. I was just loading the bike onto the trailer to head south from Canada. Will see if the bike starts OK once down in AZ. I know they said a few posts back that lots of sledders were using these batteries but so far my cold weather experience hasn't been real positive.

How many times did you try to use it? Did you leave it with the lights on for a few minutes before you tried to start it?
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:09 AM   #486
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Something I do not understand is...

How is it possible these high tech batteries to have enormous CCA and when it is cold they should get warmed up to give the expected CCA.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:40 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Scott Baja View Post
So, have any of you bikers used the Antigravity batteries, and if so for how long has it been in the bike, and whats your opinion? I live in Montana and the stock battery failed me in cold weather. I even tried jump starting from a truck and drained its battery and it needed to be jumped. What Im asking is, what battery, if any, will turn over the 950 below 25 degree F
Hey Baja,
Actually 25 degrees is not that bad... and you should be able to have the bike turn over in that weather fairly easily with a good battery... But it appears you may have had some other issue in the situation you described....

Also s an FYI it must be understood that most lead/acid batteries put into bikes today are not really a great match for riding in severe cold weather conditions continually. The first issue is that the quality of lead/acid batteries has gone down quite a bit by making the plates thinner and I feel (maybe unjustly) that is is sort of an overall cost saving measure by the lead/acid manufactures to not make a high quality long lasting product since if they go bad they will sell more and customers usually don't question a Lead/Acid battery going bad, they just accept it... The other issue is that bike manufactures want to save space and make a lighter smaller bike so they are putting smaller batteries in the bikes...Yes the battery will start them well in normal weather but honestly they are not putting a battery into the bike that will effectively start bikes at freezing temps reliably, which is reasonable.... But as consumers we think a bike should do it all... the reality is they are not designing the battery size for the bike to have good performance in continual freezing weather or they would be putting in the YTZ20s like they do in snowmobiles..An example of manufactures putting in smaller batteries is the 08-2011 CBR1000RR... it now uses a YTZ7 Lead acid battery... that is the same battery found in 450cc Enduro bikes and it is small for a 1000cc bike...the reason they put that battery in the CBR is because the intended use of the bike is a sportbike so they assume it will not often see very cold weather and it saves weight so the CBR seems much lighter in the specs... So it effective, but not really optimal for a daily driver who sees cold weather..

For anyone who does not know.... You should NEVER allow a battery to drain below 10v. The actual number is lower by a little (but lets not split hairs) but consider 10v as your conservative cut off . If you drain a lead/acid or lithium battery below 10v, which is a dead battery for all intents and purposes, it is most likely getting damaged because the cells must maintain a minimum voltage to stay healthy and retain the ability to maintain its capacity and ability to discharge amperage at a high rate. I bring this up because many people inadvertantly damage the battery with accessories like heated grips or vests not wired correctly and they drain the battery to dead and think they can bring it back... Yes you can seemingly bring it back but the damage is done the cells will not have the previous capcity or ability to hold a charge nor the power it once had. Yes, the battery tender will make it appear your battery is fine and dandy but the battery tender is basically masking the damage on a lead acid battery much of the time and if you leave it off a battery tender for a couple weeks the battery won't start the bike. That battery is surely damaged.

Just wanted to point out some of the realities of batteries in general so that you might understand how batteries are being used and some of their limitations...
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:55 AM   #488
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How is it possible these high tech batteries to have enormous CCA and when it is cold they should get warmed up to give the expected CCA.
Electrons.When a battery is very cold the electrons don't move so fast....when warmed they become more active, this is true of many things even our bodies....

Also as an FYI trying to start a battery when very cold uses more of its capacity as wasted energy than when it is warm....so if you in a pinch try to get that battery warm first on a Lead Acid or you will be wasting alot of it power on that initail start attempt. For the battery to flow electrons at a HIGH RATE of discharge such as a start attempt they should be warmer... it works the same for Lead batteries but Lead is front loaded so to speak, meaning it full power it on the intial pulse attempts. The lithium will actually get MORE powerful as it gets warmer in the cold. So on lead you get one shot or two shots in the cold if your battery isn't in optimal shape then it degrades even if warmed up. Lithium as it warms will get back to full power.
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:07 PM   #489
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Electrons.When a battery is very cold the electrons don't move so fast....when warmed they become more active, this is true of many things even our bodies....
Ermm....not quite so, at least in the way you put it. The colder a conductor, the faster the electrons move within it. Ever heard of superconductivity?
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:41 PM   #490
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Sleep with it

A photographer friend of mine suggested sleeping with the lithium battery to warm it up. Evidently some DSLR camera batteries are known to fail in the cold and the trick is to warm them up with body heat. Now if I can just get used to that lump under my Thermarest.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:33 PM   #491
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Ermm....not quite so, at least in the way you put it. The colder a conductor, the faster the electrons move within it. Ever heard of superconductivity?
The fact is atoms move faster with heat and/or generate heat when they move faster... period. A warmer temp allows the battery to express amperage much more effectively.

Superconductivity is a principal that does not apply to a battery cell discharging amperage.... it is based on zero resistance which will never be found in a battery... and only applies to certain metals that are absolutely pure and and other stuff that is far beyond my abilities to even comprehend or express accurately...

I just put our the most basic reason a battery performs better at warmer tempratures and it is accurate.
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Old 12-21-2011, 03:59 PM   #492
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1.The fact is atoms move faster with heat and/or generate heat when they move faster... period. A warmer temp allows the battery to express amperage much more effectively.

2. Superconductivity is a principal that does not apply to a battery cell discharging amperage.... it is based on zero resistance which will never be found in a battery... and only applies to certain metals that are absolutely pure and and other stuff that is far beyond my abilities to even comprehend or express accurately...

3.I just put our the most basic reason a battery performs better at warmer tempratures and it is accurate.
1. Current is free moving electrons. Atoms form a lattice. The higher the temperature, the faster the atoms oscilate and the more resistance they provide to the electron motion through it.

2. Of course it doesn't. I mentioned it as an example of the extreme situation where lattice atoms are almost frozen and electrons move with no resistance at all.

3. You didnt put a reason, you just stated an observed fact.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:42 PM   #493
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Seems the lithium technology is still a bit young maybe for our application? I don't have a problem replacing a $70 lead acid battery every 3 years or so, but if I spend the extra $ for a lithium ion battery, it had better work - and last longer. I'm looking at buying a battery for my 990 in the Spring - but so far, I can't make heads or tails out of what I hear. (Granted, the internet supplies the good, bad and ugly) So - for those of us who don't want to wait around for our batteries to warm - up and "hope" they start our machines in sub - 40 degree weather, what's the best advice?
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:28 PM   #494
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Seems the lithium technology is still a bit young maybe for our application? I don't have a problem replacing a $70 lead acid battery every 3 years or so, but if I spend the extra $ for a lithium ion battery, it had better work - and last longer. I'm looking at buying a battery for my 990 in the Spring - but so far, I can't make heads or tails out of what I hear. (Granted, the internet supplies the good, bad and ugly) So - for those of us who don't want to wait around for our batteries to warm - up and "hope" they start our machines in sub - 40 degree weather, what's the best advice?
Odyssey!
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:37 PM   #495
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Odyssey!
Which one/size? The PC310 seems to be the only size that will fit an LC8 and it's marginal, I had one for another bikes and tried it on the LC8. Barely enough in cold weather, too marginal for me so tried the Shorai.
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